Meyer Sound Harsh?

[Jeff Stevens]

Hi,

I've been a long time lurker from back on the old site, but I never had a reason to post (until now).

I work for a theatre company that wants to buy new speakers. We have money for this, but were thinking that by buying used we would be able to take a big step up in quality. We demo'ed Meyer UPM-1P and UPJ-1P speakers and, although there were many qualities we liked about them, we thought the high-end was a little harsh. Our impressions of these were at 95dBA/98dBC measured at 3 feet, so we should be far away from the limiters.

I have heard Meyer in a number of other venues and never wanted to take a step away from the speakers like I felt this time. Has anybody else noticed this? For the record, this was just the speakers; there was no external processing. We do not have high-volume requirements. Most of the time, the rig will be in the upper 80s and low 90s reproducing just voice, but we have always had trouble with intelligibility.

~Jeff

(Pardon me if this better fits JV, I assumed varsity would be more appropriate seeing the brand and semi-pro status of the theatre.)

 

[gordon mcgregor]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Someone somewhere posted a review of the UPJ and I seem to remember they concluded that once it was turned up a bit it could get harsh, I have used UPA1cs for a long time now and also UPA1-ps and when they are cranked they can also get harsh however they get a LOT louder before that happens. See if you can try some of the bigger UP speakers or else use more of the smaller ones. The UP series of Meyer are very good if used in context however they will lose it quite abruptly if used outside what they are meant to do. G

 

[Phil Graham]

Re: The things at work in a listening test

Hi,

I've been a long time lurker from back on the old site, but I never had a reason to post (until now).

I work for a theatre company that wants to buy new speakers. We have money for this, but were thinking that by buying used we would be able to take a big step up in quality. We demo'ed Meyer UPM-1P and UPJ-1P speakers and, although there were many qualities we liked about them, we thought the high-end was a little harsh. Our impressions of these were at 95dBA/98dBC measured at 3 feet, so we should be far away from the limiters.

~Jeff

Jeff,

Four things:

1. Virtually every speaker on earth listened to at 95dBA at 1 meter away, if that is indeed where you are listening, will sound harsh(ish). That is screaming loud so close to a box. Even a few extra feet of air absorption will dramatically change your impression of the top end.

2. Songs/CDs are mastered at a huge variety of levels, and a lot of different eq balances as a result. Many cds are mastered very crispy on the top end so that they have "air" at low volume levels. You have to be very VERY careful about your source material.

3. Certain brickwall mastering limiters also do REALLY BAD things to the very high frequencies. The waves L2 when pushed hard was/is particularly egregious. Anything that sounds like "frying bacon" on the decay side of transient events is almost always IMD from some component of the limiting chain.

4. Some playback devices have very poor analog headroom in front of their reconstruction filtering. Tracks mastered right against 0dBFS in the digital realm can have intersample peaks more than 2dB higher after the reconstruction filter. The intersample peaks can be very much in the "not pretty" realm of the analog electronics at the end of the playback chain. TC Electronics presented an AES paper on this a few years back using consumer CD and DVD players. I also saw a test (which I cannot find) that shows certain Apple iXYZ products as poor performers (especially the original iPhone 3G).

In addition to my live audio work, I also do some mastering, and it never ceases to amaze me the diversity of top end balance that is requested. Its also amazing to see how much a half dB shelving filter above 12kHz can change one's perception of the track brightness. Not only does the overall track air change, one's perception of the balance between 2-5kHz also shifts! The latter effect is especially tough with low end earbuds that have nothing above 10kHz. A track that is balanced on a quality playback system suddenly becomes spitty on the earbuds that are missing the last octave.

So, in summary, mastering is a compromise, and poorly chosen source material will badly skew a demo. I've seen too many demos of good products ruined with poor source material, level choices, and listening positions. Unless I get to pick the music, and the level, and the listening spot, I don't make loudspeaker conclusions from listening tests.

Meyer has historically been one of the good guys, and the UPJ class products are what put them on the map, so don't immediately write them off as a result of this listening experience.

 

[John Halliburton]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Phil is spot on as usual.

I'd add that what you really need to do is demo the prospective loudspeakers at your theater as close to the proposed install points with a variety of inputs, especially the sources you currently for productions.

If the seller won't let you do that, rent them and try. Shouldn't be hard to find some Meyer product to rent there so close to "HQ". ;>)

Best regards,

John

 

[Franz Francis]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Try demoing some of the products from La Acoustics, Danley and Nexo, my experience with their products even up close and loud is just pure musical.

Franz

 

[Scott Helmke]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Meyer speakers, especially the smaller ones, don't do that well in demo/shootout situations. The UPA-1P is especially honky sounding. But when you get them up into a real context they really shine. What John H. said - try to get a real demo setup with any speakers you're thinking of buying.

 

[Kip Conner]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

I would agree with your assessment on the high frequency drivers in the ultra series. While I love using Meyer UPA boxes for FOH, I could never use them for a monitor setting. The UMP's seem better suited for theatrical use for playback than with an open mic at high SPL in front of them. The new MJF series are a different story, the dual 12 configuration really balances out the drivers.

 

[Jeff Stevens]

Re: The things at work in a listening test

Phil,

1) We were not listening to them at 3 feet (actually more like 20), but measured our SPL there in trying to be consistent. I should also mention that was dB slow.

2) Some of the test material we used, I and the other sound guy recorded ourselves.

3&4) This is something I had not considered. The tracks I mastered had gentle compression and the highest peak was at -1dBFS. Knowing the CD player we used, the cd player coloring the sound is a very real possibility.

I probably should have been more specific, but these demos were done at our venue. The UPMs will be used as front fill roughly 4'-8' away from the first audience member. They were setup in roughly the real instillation points. The UPJs will form the center etc, and were underneath the real point (as the real point is at a 15' trim).

I'll admit, I really love the simplicity of the package and am far from writing them off, especially since the intelligibility are so far superior from the speakers they are replacing.

~Jeff

 

[Jake Scudder]

Re: The things at work in a listening test

Phil,

[snip]

I'll admit, I really love the simplicity of the package and am far from writing them off, especially since the intelligibility are so far superior from the speakers they are replacing.

~Jeff

Ding, ding, ding!

Intelligibility is why you buy these speakers. I'm certainly not saying that Meyer is the only manufacturer that can provide this but they certainly do a good job of it. Do you think the "harshness" you are hearing is anything that can't be corrected with processing?

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: The things at work in a listening test

I agree with Jake. I have several UPJ-1Ps and UPM-1Ps in house and they are my favorite speakers by far in our inventory. I wish had a half dozen more of each of them. I use them mainly for foldback monitoring for opera, ballet, symphony and some theatre work. I have never received anything but praise about how the onstage fold back sounded. The UPJs are by far my favorite small compact speaker.

 

[Kent Clasen]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

I would echo that Meyer Speakers, at least the smaller range that you are looking at, do not "demo" well, BUT used in real situations they perform very well. The first time I opened a UPM1p and listened to it in our shop, I didn't like it, but used in a live event they were great. I agree with Justice that the UPJ1P is my fav compact speaker.

 

[Steve Ferreira]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

At my work we have a huge inventory of Meyer gear, from UPM's to M2D's. The speakers really shine when you have a Galileo in the mix.
Are you gonna be setting up different zones? Different levels?

 

[Jeff Stevens]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

It is a decently small venue, about 350 seats, but we will have different levels, drive sources (the speakers are driven from the board matrices), and delay. The front fill speakers are about 10 downstage of the mains, so alignment is a necessity.

It is interesting to hear most people agree that the speakers sound good in actual use, but not so much during a demo. That was the primary thing holding us back. I figured there had to be more to the story, espcially since they are one of the "in" brands.

~Jeff

 

[Steve Ferreira]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

It is a decently small venue, about 350 seats, but we will have different levels, drive sources (the speakers are driven from the board matrices), and delay. The front fill speakers are about 10 downstage of the mains, so alignment is a necessity.

It is interesting to hear most people agree that the speakers sound good in actual use, but not so much during a demo. That was the primary thing holding us back. I figured there had to be more to the story, espcially since they are one of the "in" brands.

~Jeff

The Galileo is the perfect unit for you then. It has all the processing power you need.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

I would echo that XYZ Speakers do not "demo" well, BUT used in real situations they perform very well. The first time I opened a ABC and listened to it in our shop, I didn't like it, but used in a live event they were great. .

The problem is how to compare then. In a live situation it is often very difficult to switch out systems and listen on one then the other. To listen to the same track through different systems and so forth.

Our ear has a short acoustic memory. And if you don't use the same source material-then how do you know what will be produced better. A different band/mix person etc can completely change how a loudpseaker system "sounds".

Granted there are many systems out there that can "get the job done". But side by side in a controlled demo is one of the better ways to hear differences.

Take the LDI outdoor systems (back when they were doing it) for example. Yes most used a live band-but it was not the same band-with the same engineer for the different stages. And anybody who has mixed the same band a number of times will tell you that sometimes the band is "ON" and other times they are not. I heard from a number of people that the systems sound different at different times of the day. Some of this could be temp related and others human related.

Sometimes it all comes together for a great mix. and other times it is just not quite there. So is it the loudspeakers fault? What about the humans on each end of the snake? A good number of variables does not ensure anything comparable.

All I am saying is that without a consistant source-comparing gets to be real hard. Of course when you don't have anything else to compare to-many loudspeaker systems can sound "fine".

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Try demoing some of the products from La Acoustics, Danley and Nexo, my experience with their products even up close and loud is just pure musical.

Oh, yes, definitely. And as long as you're doing that demo stuff from EAW, JBL, Fulcrum Acoustics, ADRaudio, Turbosound, D&B, QSC, and Peavey. One of those brands will definitely have what you need.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Oh, yes, definitely. And as long as you're doing that demo stuff from EAW, JBL, Fulcrum Acoustics, ADRaudio, Turbosound, D&B, QSC, and Peavey. One of those brands will definitely have what you need.

Bennett, clearly, you forgot Mackie, Tapco, SoundTech, American Audio, B-52, Gem Sound, Behringer, Pyle Pro, Samson, and Technical Pro.

 

[Kip Conner]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Realistic makes great gear at a competitive price, real competitive price

 

[Curtis H List (Too Tall)]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Hi Jeff,
I ran the original UPA with the old style (pre-powerlite) QSC amps.
This combination and was often Harsh. It REALLY hated it when the amps clipped.
I have no experience with the newer “Ultra” models sounded like.
I quit mixing November 1997.

As for listening to this box at 1 meter this is a very bad idea.
This box was NOT designed for near field listening.

For Near Field use you must either have small drivers or coax drivers because the compression driver and the 12” woofers voice coil are not at the same distance to the listener. As soon as you put the horn next to the woofer you have a problem with Near Field listening.

One of the first things I must decide when approaching a new design is where on the baffle you will be listening to it.
Half way between the center of the woofer and the center of the horn?
On axis to the horn?
So other place for a strange reason? Some Home audio speakers are designed to be pointed straight ahead instead of pointing the dome tweeter at the listening position.
Often because they had an on axis spike that did not show up off axis. Yet the dispersion is enough so that you do not lose the high frequency information you want.
The friend who is seated in front of the speaker has his ears burned…LOL

I typically go with half way between on this kind of box.
If you design it for on axis to the horn then when you listen at a close distance you should listen on axis to the horn. Because since you drivers are not coaxial as you move your ear up and down on the baffle the distance to the horn and woofer constantly change.
So how the drivers combine in the xover region changes.
This is the crux of the matter because it changes the way the frequency response changes in the all important xover region. By moving that close it can give you peaks or holes anywhere from 500Hz to 2500Hz again depending on how the xover filters combine.

If I get a chance I will send you a picture from my modeling software showing how things can change because of the listening distance.

As you listen further away the difference from your ear to the woofer and compression driver gets closer and closer till these is no difference.
At a longer distance is where you want to design to.
If you make it measure and work correctly at 1 meter and on axis to the horn it will sound bad everywhere else.

To properly measure a multi way speaker you should take the longest dimension of the baffle (Height?) and multiple times four.
So a two feet height means the measurement mic should be at least eight feet from the baffle.

They call this the distance the speaker system needs for the drivers to “integrate” correctly.

If the UPA is designed for half way between the horn center and the woofer center your best result for listening at 1 meter is make sure that center spot is level with your ear. More than dispersion problems, which there may be, the timing for when the sound from the horn and woofer gets to your ear is correct for the xover design used.

 

[Curtis H List (Too Tall)]

Re: Meyer Sound Harsh?

Here is a picture showing what happens when you are too close.
On axis to the woofer at 1 meter and the same at 8 meters.
At 8 meters almost no difference.

So with a measurement mic on axis to the woofer and very close we only hear some of the horn and way off axis.
Beside looking at the drop in SPL from the horn look at the massive comb filtering going on!