Midas Heritage Insert Snake

[Brandon Blakeney]

What have you guys used that works well for inserts on a Heritage 2000/3000? A simple 8 or 12 channel balanced insert snake which is manually patched to necessary channels on the day of show....Or some sort of custom built 48 channel patch bay system in which all inserts are wired at all times and are patched to comps via front of an effects rack? I am looking at switching to a heritage from my A&H ML which uses unbalanced inserts...

Thanks!

 

[Thomas Dameron]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

Is it for portable or installed use? If portable there is no question that a patchbay system is not a good idea. Typically folks use multiple snakes to get from the fx racks. One of gates, one of comps and one of fx/playback is common. Usually there is a multipin disconnect at the rack that the cable rides in the doghouse, although this can get pricey. Especially with the comps, make sure there is enough spread in the console end of the snake so that you can patch inserts into channels spread far apart on the console. Also, if you're getting custom cables made up be sure to leave spare channels for cable failure and adding gear to the fx rack. It's easy enough to secure unused channels of the snake out of the way if they aren't needed at the time.

thomas d.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

Is it for portable or installed use? If portable there is no question that a patchbay system is not a good idea. Typically folks use multiple snakes to get from the fx racks. One of gates, one of comps and one of fx/playback is common. Usually there is a multipin disconnect at the rack that the cable rides in the doghouse, although this can get pricey. Especially with the comps, make sure there is enough spread in the console end of the snake so that you can patch inserts into channels spread far apart on the console. Also, if you're getting custom cables made up be sure to leave spare channels for cable failure and adding gear to the fx rack. It's easy enough to secure unused channels of the snake out of the way if they aren't needed at the time.

thomas d.

Yes, portable for one-offs for national and regional artists......any recommendations on affordable custom disconnect snakes? I currently have a 48ch disconnect snake from CBI that I've had good luck with.

 

[Thomas Dameron]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

If you have a good relationship with CBI stick with them. I'm a Rapco and Six-2 dealer and usually use Rapco for this kind of stuff because they have more range in their multipin stock. I'm partial to the Veam variants, especially the 85pin. It's a convenient channel count, super robust with giant pins (esp. compared to mass), and reasonably inexpensive. Audiopile has their place and I buy from them, but I would go a step above that level of cables for this project both for the BOCO aspect as well as value added of the custom solutions with custom colors on send/returns, channel names, etc. In the middle of a street fest you don't want to think about "ok, ch 19 on my trs fan-fan snake is comp 7 send because the eq is on the 1st 2 pairs...". A good custom cable company will shrink wrap the two pairs with consistent color coding for send/return, have custom names at both ends of the snake, etc.

Especially since the insert patch will change frequently I feel like there diminishing returns on having disconnects for a regional company like yours. It never made sense to me to pay an extra $1k on disconnects that save you a minute max when it takes 10min+ to zero out the console. Also, it keep the looms with the racks, which makes it easier to send the same racks with different consoles. It's not expensive to get adapters to make a dual point insert snake worth with your A&H consoles.

If I were starting from scratch on an analog rig I would have extra deep effects racks with slam latch rear doors so I could store the cables but still have a clean rear panel. Quarter by third pack are super convenient for a variety of things. Have some good system for coiling the looms in the racks, which also gets a lot of extra cable weight out of the console. Make sure the cable looms have plenty of length for weird clubs and theaters where you have to put the racks behind you or some bizarre place. They can get pretty lengthy by the time you have the large fanout to span a full frame console, get to the racks, and fan-out in the racks.

Also, to reinforce my opinion of your original question, a full insert patch bay will require 48ch of send and 48ch of return just for the inserts, plus drive signals, fx sends, returns and playback. That winds up being ~125 signal pairs going back and forth that would really need disconnects at both ends to do properly. That's about three full W-4 trunks. I'd stay out of coffee spitting range when you get that quote back. All that before patchbay headaches and maintenance enter into the equation. I would definitely forgo that option.

thomas d.

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

Yes, portable for one-offs for national and regional artists......any recommendations on affordable custom disconnect snakes? I currently have a 48ch disconnect snake from CBI that I've had good luck with.

BEHRINGER X32!! , oops sorry bad habit lol. CBI has been a reliable source for me too, but I bought my console insert masses from brtb in Canada , who did a great job... I went for 16 trs input mass (link 54 connector), 16 trs output, and a 72 I think for all effects sends/ returns , mains and playback and record.... 3 mass connections and the whole rack is patched... The way to go for sure.

 

[Craig Hauber]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

No patchbay, but a 52ch TRS ramlatch fanout in the doghouse with a matching 52ch fanout with it's connector rackmounted in the back of the effects rack on a hinged panel. We would then just use ramlatch standard snake trunk segments to connect the doghouse to the rack -generally a 30' one.

The rack was left standard patched. Gates 1-8, comps 9-16, money-channel goodies 17 and up. Yes there were lots of TRS to XLR adapters involved depending on the pieces in the rack, but the majority of connections were still TRS.

Any custom patching was done in the doghouse and for 1-offs, there was always much dashing behind the desk to adjust things. Fan-outs were always long enough to span the full width of the board with slack to spare and same in the rack to reach "visiting" pieces that ended up sitting on top of it.

The nice thing about the ramlatch was the ability to rough-patch the board in the shop to really speed-up load-in and setup. Also having properly whirlwind-built, mogami and neutrik cable assemblies removed much worry about cable problems, rarely if ever did I have a problem with the Ramlatch connector continuity, but I also kept good care of them while in tour and also for one-off use

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

Well this all may be null and void, looks like someone bought that Heritage out from under me........finally one had dropped into my price range.....oh well, the waiting game continues.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

So I did find an H3K in my price range and will have it shortly. In the mean time I'm looking at insert snake options.

How much fan is required for an insert snake for a 48 channel H3K? The console is 89" long per spec but my last few channels are stereo. I'm looking at a used Whirlwind mass with 3' of fan out on the console end...too short??

 

[Hal Harrison]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

Brandon,

3' of fan is pretty short for that long of desk. I would recommend at least 5'-6' for a fan with that large of desk. IMHO, mults are great but they are also one more thing to go wrong in the loop. If it were me depending on how you are doing your FX/Drive racks, I would get a big rack with plenty of depth and just keep all the cables wired to the devices and then have a loom to your inserts for the desk since you will always be patching your inserts to different places on your desk. Maybe for FX do a small mult as that stuff usually stays normal into sends/returns.

Hal

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

Brandon,

3' of fan is pretty short for that long of desk. I would recommend at least 5'-6' for a fan with that large of desk. IMHO, mults are great but they are also one more thing to go wrong in the loop. If it were me depending on how you are doing your FX/Drive racks, I would get a big rack with plenty of depth and just keep all the cables wired to the devices and then have a loom to your inserts for the desk since you will always be patching your inserts to different places on your desk. Maybe for FX do a small mult as that stuff usually stays normal into sends/returns.

Hal

For several years I had an EWI 12 insert snake that I just rolled up in my efx rack but it eventually started having bad channels I guess due to be crammed up in the bottom of the rack. I was looking at something that could be neatly left in the console dog house and then have a rack mounted disconnect on the rack. I'm open to all suggestions.

 

[Josh Millward]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

If you have enough channels of inserts plus enough channels of effects to make it time consuming to set up, I would seriously recommend using something like a Ramlatch. The 54 pairs in a standard Ramlatch will get you 27 channels of inserts. Also, the back of the rack can look nice and clean. In the attached photo, the Ramlatch is handling all the inserts and the CPC connector is handling the effects units. It sets up fast and it works well. The cable is stored in the doghouse for transport and can stay patched.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

If you have enough channels of inserts plus enough channels of effects to make it time consuming to set up, I would seriously recommend using something like a Ramlatch. The 54 pairs in a standard Ramlatch will get you 27 channels of inserts. Also, the back of the rack can look nice and clean. In the attached photo, the Ramlatch is handling all the inserts and the CPC connector is handling the effects units. It sets up fast and it works well. The cable is stored in the doghouse for transport and can stay patched.

If you'd like to hear choking, sputtering noises, tell Brandon what that setup costs... there is a chunk o' change there.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

If you have enough channels of inserts plus enough channels of effects to make it time consuming to set up, I would seriously recommend using something like a Ramlatch. The 54 pairs in a standard Ramlatch will get you 27 channels of inserts. Also, the back of the rack can look nice and clean. In the attached photo, the Ramlatch is handling all the inserts and the CPC connector is handling the effects units. It sets up fast and it works well. The cable is stored in the doghouse for transport and can stay patched.

Hey Josh, I just noticed you're only about an hour north of me. Is that your rig in the photo?

I looked at Ramlatch when it was time to buy a new snake last year, but ended up going with CBI and have no complaints. I called CBI about a quote earlier this week but have yet to hear from anyone.

I want: 8 channels of comp, 8 channels of gate, 4 channels of FX, and Left, Right, Center, and Aux Subs EQ inserts to the FOH rack.

There are some whirlwind mass systems available on ebay right now but according the seller the console end fans are only about 3 feet :/ How dangerous could it be to start X-acto knifing the insulation back??

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

Brandon,

If it were me depending on how you are doing your FX/Drive racks, I would get a big rack with plenty of depth and just keep all the cables wired to the devices and then have a loom to your inserts for the desk since you will always be patching your inserts to different places on your desk. Maybe for FX do a small mult as that stuff usually stays normal into sends/returns.

Hal

A big +1 from me on this approach!

It makes sense to be able to have the "racks package" ready to go with a multitude of different desks, as well as have it ready to go for dry rentals. Many venues have an OK desk but need better outboard for visiting BEs.

The outboard package can even be used with "that 16 ch Mixwiz that usually sits at the back of the shop unless all the digital is out" basically making it a pretty killer desk for a low channel-count show.

The desks can be "clean" and be basically just a console with a few knicknacks in the doghouse, that way, they are also ready to go for dry hire and can be dropped into any setting that already has outboard, but just needs more mix channels, for instance.

The inserts looms need to have "two-point" trs insert fans with an adaptor sitting on the end that combines two TS female into one TRS male. That way, the insert loom will work with balanced inserts as well as all "one point" inserts regardless of which connector of the TRS is send and return.

 

[Josh Millward]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

If you'd like to hear choking, sputtering noises, tell Brandon what that setup costs... there is a chunk o' change there.

Yeah, it is certainly not "insignificant"... however, when expeditious setup and tear down are important and you want to use the same setup over and over again, I really think it is the only way to go.

Hey Josh, I just noticed you're only about an hour north of me. Is that your rig in the photo?

No it is not. It is some of the gear that belongs to ESI Audio down in Tampa. I worked there for a few years in the early 2000's. The photos below are other shots of ESI gear. The Insert/EFX racks were on the road with a Heritage H3000 console in the fall of 2003 and most all of 2004 with Sevendust. I'm sure some of the people on this forum saw this gear on the road.

I want: 8 channels of comp, 8 channels of gate, 4 channels of FX, and Left, Right, Center, and Aux Subs EQ inserts to the FOH rack.

8 Compressor channels = 16 lines
8 Gate channels = 16 lines
4 FX Units (assuming mono send and stereo return) = 12 lines
4 Drive Channel Inserts (L, C, R, Sub) = 8 lines

This gives you 52 lines, which means you have two extra lines for putting your ClearCom base station in your rack and still have one left over line, if you were to go with a 54 pair Ramlatch.

There are some whirlwind mass systems available on ebay right now but according the seller the console end fans are only about 3 feet :/ How dangerous could it be to start X-acto knifing the insulation back??

Oh boy... Good luck with that!

 

[brian maddox]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

[i can't believe my knowledge and experience in this area is actually still relevant in the digital age, but i'm gonna bask in my sense of usefulness for a moment...]

When it's all said and done, there are two basic approaches to dealing with looms for inserts and effects with analog rigs.

In approach number 1, The loom lives with the effects rack. This is ideal when you mix and match your racks to your consoles, or if you're doing mostly one-offs where you're changing around the patching in the desk all the time anyway. If this is your reality, there is not a lot to be gained by adding a multi pin. it's entirely possible to prepatch a lengthy loom into your effects, create space in the back of the rack for it to live, and still put a door with a cutout in the back of the rack for a nice clean look.

In approach number 2, The loom lives with the console. This is ideal in a tour situation where the patching doesn't change, or in a situation where an effects rack and console always go together. This is where the multipin becomes key and is such a huge time saver. Still the effects rack should have a door on the back to make changing the patching around relatively easy.

What i have seen is most sound companies seem to take approach 2 regardless of their actual reality, which can make doing one-offs a real pain as you go in and have to reconfigure everything anyway and the multipin just adds a point of failure. So my advice is be realistic. If you don't do tours, and/or have a lot of different consoles and effects that you mix and match, don't bother with the multis. They are cool and make you feel like a Big Boy Sound Company, but they don't actually add any real value to what you're doing.

 

[Jordan Lahr]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

biggest issue with ram latch is over the course of 10 years... they don't always like to work, at least not the way you want them too...

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

biggest issue with ram latch is over the course of 10 years... they don't always like to work, at least not the way you want them too...

They require maintenance. The most commonly overlooked is checking the machine screws that hold the pin blocks. If they get loose the pin block will not fully disengage when the retracter bail is pulled back. If it's really whacky you'll have to disassemble the connector body.

30 seconds with a small screwdriver every 6 months will prevent this.

The other failure modes seem to require brute force combined with abject silliness.

 

[Geri O'Neil]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

biggest issue with ram latch is over the course of 10 years... they don't always like to work, at least not the way you want them too...

Rather descriptive there, eh?...

We have 2 sets that are at least 18 years old. Only problems were 2 of the blue pin blocks that cracked because of, who knew, someone overtightening the screws.

Retro-fitted the older grey AMP connectors with the steel handles and handle cams.

Anything can break if you try really hard and abuse it enough and/or just right.

Thankfully, we know how to handle ours.

Geri O

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Midas Heritage Insert Snake

They require maintenance. The most commonly overlooked is checking the machine screws that hold the pin blocks. If they get loose the pin block will not fully disengage when the retracter bail is pulled back. If it's really whacky you'll have to disassemble the connector body.

30 seconds with a small screwdriver every 6 months will prevent this.

Seems like a good application for some threadlocker.