Mixing Resources
- Thread starter Adam Black
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Re: Mixing Resources
That seems to be the common advice. But I've had enough time around sound engineers and good sounding systems that bad sound annoys me immensely. The thought of being responsible for the bad sound is abhorrent!
Just jump in and swim. The water's warm
That seems to be the common advice. But I've had enough time around sound engineers and good sounding systems that bad sound annoys me immensely. The thought of being responsible for the bad sound is abhorrent!
Re: Mixing Resources
Often the bad sound is being caused by the operator because the musicians instrument typically sounds good (at least it is what the musician wants to hear, so it should be considered "good").
So, to paraphrase what I saw in someone's signature on one of these message boards, find something that sounds good and try not to screw it up when you make it louder. Understanding what the controls at your finger tips actually do to the sound is a powerful bit of information. This is information that can be gleaned just by plugging a basic dynamic microphone into that 1202 on your desk and fiddle with the gain, low cut, and EQ knobs. You'll get a handle on what it does pretty quickly.
Oh, and get used to hearing your voice coming out of the loudspeaker, it never sounds like what you think it sounds like.
The path to good sound is made by fixing the bad sound.
Often the bad sound is being caused by the operator because the musicians instrument typically sounds good (at least it is what the musician wants to hear, so it should be considered "good").
So, to paraphrase what I saw in someone's signature on one of these message boards, find something that sounds good and try not to screw it up when you make it louder. Understanding what the controls at your finger tips actually do to the sound is a powerful bit of information. This is information that can be gleaned just by plugging a basic dynamic microphone into that 1202 on your desk and fiddle with the gain, low cut, and EQ knobs. You'll get a handle on what it does pretty quickly.
Oh, and get used to hearing your voice coming out of the loudspeaker, it never sounds like what you think it sounds like.
Re: Mixing Resources
As others have said Just do it , you have to start somewhere, might as well be here at this point and time. The more experience you have at doing sound the better you will be and the more you will progress with time. remember none of us are THE GREATEST we just know what we know and what GOD has given us knowledge to know.
As others have said Just do it , you have to start somewhere, might as well be here at this point and time. The more experience you have at doing sound the better you will be and the more you will progress with time. remember none of us are THE GREATEST we just know what we know and what GOD has given us knowledge to know.
Re: Mixing Resources
Not sure about the manual for the StudioLive, but quite a lot of manuals for entry level desks include a reasonable amount of generic information on things like hooking up the gear and getting basic signal flow and gain staging set. Try looking at A&H's manuals for things like the GL series boards to see the kind of thing I'm talking about - it might be too basic for you but could be a good starter.
The venerable Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook is always worth it if you want more in depth stuff that'll be a good couple or three steps above that in terms of how in-depth it goes, you'll definitely need to have had some hands on time as others are suggesting to get the most out of it though.
Unfortunately I can't think of anything off the top of my head that sits comfortably in between these two suggestions.
HTH,
David
Not sure about the manual for the StudioLive, but quite a lot of manuals for entry level desks include a reasonable amount of generic information on things like hooking up the gear and getting basic signal flow and gain staging set. Try looking at A&H's manuals for things like the GL series boards to see the kind of thing I'm talking about - it might be too basic for you but could be a good starter.
The venerable Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook is always worth it if you want more in depth stuff that'll be a good couple or three steps above that in terms of how in-depth it goes, you'll definitely need to have had some hands on time as others are suggesting to get the most out of it though.
Unfortunately I can't think of anything off the top of my head that sits comfortably in between these two suggestions.
HTH,
David
Re: Mixing Resources
Adam,
You have gotten some good advice here. Bottom lime is that to learn it you just have to do it. Many of us learned the ropes mixing in bars and frat house basements, where the patrons were drunk enough that they didn't really recognize that we were making a lot of mistakes figuring out what we were doing! I believe that the best way to learn the right way is to try every wrong way possible. Fortunately, as a live sound engineer, when you screw up, nobody dies. I believe that the main skill necessary to being a good mix engineer is to be a critical listener. You must know where you are going. It is very much like being a sculpture. You look at the raw piece of stone and visualize the perfect form within, then you get rid of all the extra crap that is in the way to reveal it. Have fun!!!
p.s. - It occurs to me that perhaps the key to being a good sound engineer is confidence. You must have confidence that the song you hear in your mind is the perfect song. Then you do whatever is necessary to create/reveal it.
Adam,
You have gotten some good advice here. Bottom lime is that to learn it you just have to do it. Many of us learned the ropes mixing in bars and frat house basements, where the patrons were drunk enough that they didn't really recognize that we were making a lot of mistakes figuring out what we were doing! I believe that the best way to learn the right way is to try every wrong way possible. Fortunately, as a live sound engineer, when you screw up, nobody dies. I believe that the main skill necessary to being a good mix engineer is to be a critical listener. You must know where you are going. It is very much like being a sculpture. You look at the raw piece of stone and visualize the perfect form within, then you get rid of all the extra crap that is in the way to reveal it. Have fun!!!
p.s. - It occurs to me that perhaps the key to being a good sound engineer is confidence. You must have confidence that the song you hear in your mind is the perfect song. Then you do whatever is necessary to create/reveal it.
Re: Mixing Resources
Sounds like a gig to me! I'll drive out any time and co-mix with you, brother. I could even show you how to use the Smaart program you've heard so much about! :lol:
Sounds like a gig to me! I'll drive out any time and co-mix with you, brother. I could even show you how to use the Smaart program you've heard so much about! :lol:
Re: Mixing Resources
HA! You say that in jest, but in truth I love to watch people use Smaart. For more reasons than I could possibly list. I jump at every chance to attend system tunings that are in the area.
HA! You say that in jest, but in truth I love to watch people use Smaart. For more reasons than I could possibly list. I jump at every chance to attend system tunings that are in the area.
Re: Mixing Resources
Adam , If you have any questions on here feel free to P.M. me anytime and if i can help you then I would love to. Not saying by no means that i know it all, but if it's something that I might have knowledge in, then I would love to try and help
Adam , If you have any questions on here feel free to P.M. me anytime and if i can help you then I would love to.
Not saying by no means that i know it all, but if it's something that I might have knowledge in, then I would love to try and help 
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Mixing Resources
I agree with you there, but it's often going to be out of your control. I avoid gigs that have a 'no-win' scenario, because they reflect poorly on me and my company, even though the bad is not our fault.
Also, I'm quite close to the Rational shop (half an hour away?) and am always available if you have questions, etc. I'm at I395 exit 82.
I have a fair bit of programming experience as well, so I bet we'd always have something to talk about.
I agree with you there, but it's often going to be out of your control. I avoid gigs that have a 'no-win' scenario, because they reflect poorly on me and my company, even though the bad is not our fault.
Also, I'm quite close to the Rational shop (half an hour away?) and am always available if you have questions, etc. I'm at I395 exit 82.
I have a fair bit of programming experience as well, so I bet we'd always have something to talk about.
Re: Mixing Resources
Hi Adam,
Great advice from all the folks that have responded to this thread. I am going add a tidbit to the pile. As far as actual mixing think about taking out all of the things you don't want to amplify first. For starters engage the low cut filter on every channel except those that actually have useable low frequency content like the kik drum and the bass guitar. Frequencies below 100hz are not your friend on vocals, guitars, and other such things. All it will add is rumble, stage bleed from the bass guitar, and other nasty things like that that you don't want to amplify.
The next part is doing some subtractive equalization to further "clean up" the mix. That is a topic that is more than a line or two and I will try to add a few more things when I get back on the forum. The bottom line is clean it up before you amplify it.
Good luck with it!
-Eric
Hi Adam,
Great advice from all the folks that have responded to this thread. I am going add a tidbit to the pile. As far as actual mixing think about taking out all of the things you don't want to amplify first. For starters engage the low cut filter on every channel except those that actually have useable low frequency content like the kik drum and the bass guitar. Frequencies below 100hz are not your friend on vocals, guitars, and other such things. All it will add is rumble, stage bleed from the bass guitar, and other nasty things like that that you don't want to amplify.
The next part is doing some subtractive equalization to further "clean up" the mix. That is a topic that is more than a line or two and I will try to add a few more things when I get back on the forum. The bottom line is clean it up before you amplify it.
Good luck with it!
-Eric
Re: Mixing Resources
A HPF with a corner of 100Hz for guitar? Perhaps you're generalizing or the corner is higher, but if not it strikes me as odd because in standard tuning the low E is 82.41Hz. Could you expound on the rationale please? Or specify the actual corner and the HPF shape and slope. Though I suspect my confusion is that I know enough to be really dangerous. :blush:
See what I mean by I've a lot of theory and am well versed in the math, but little of the practical.
A HPF with a corner of 100Hz for guitar? Perhaps you're generalizing or the corner is higher, but if not it strikes me as odd because in standard tuning the low E is 82.41Hz. Could you expound on the rationale please? Or specify the actual corner and the HPF shape and slope. Though I suspect my confusion is that I know enough to be really dangerous. :blush:
See what I mean by I've a lot of theory and am well versed in the math, but little of the practical.
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Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Just because an instrument makes a sound doesn't mean you want that sound in the mix.
Male vocals go way below 100Hz, but if you don't roll them off you get unintelligible vocals once it combines with the rest of the mix. Not to mention it beats up the subs and just generally adds mud.
Same for guitars, especially acoustics. Just because the instrument may go that low by itself doesn't mean it will actually sound good in the mix.
It's all about creating a pocket for each instrument and voice.
Sent from my XT907 2
Re: Mixing Resources
Thanks. That makes perfect sense. I tend to think in the micro, and as someone else had said I need to learn to think in the macro and to listen to the whole.
It's old hat to you all, but I find this stuff fascinating. Thanks again for all the great input.
Thanks. That makes perfect sense. I tend to think in the micro, and as someone else had said I need to learn to think in the macro and to listen to the whole.
It's old hat to you all, but I find this stuff fascinating. Thanks again for all the great input.
Re: Mixing Resources
Also on the matter of Low frequencies, I have found out that the more you cut the lows down the more you can get out of your gain before clipping. I watched a guy on a video of a yamaha sound clinic and he was doing that and it really worked for me. of course every voice is different and again you just have to listen and see where the bass is in their voice before you decide to cut up or down the lows. A lot of the key to doing sound (as i am sure that others on here will tell you) is that you just have to listen to what you are hearing and make judgments on what sounds good to you and what you can do with your system. after you figure it out as far as to how high your gain before feedback is then you have done a great bit of learning about sound. IMHO
Also on the matter of Low frequencies, I have found out that the more you cut the lows down the more you can get out of your gain before clipping. I watched a guy on a video of a yamaha sound clinic and he was doing that and it really worked for me. of course every voice is different and again you just have to listen and see where the bass is in their voice before you decide to cut up or down the lows. A lot of the key to doing sound (as i am sure that others on here will tell you) is that you just have to listen to what you are hearing and make judgments on what sounds good to you and what you can do with your system. after you figure it out as far as to how high your gain before feedback is then you have done a great bit of learning about sound. IMHO
Re: Mixing Resources
This is so, so true. Drunk patrons grade on a very easy curve.
Another way to think of this is "I need to understand the genre expectations" and work the mix in that general direction for whatever the genre. Especially true for non western pop.
This is so, so true. Drunk patrons grade on a very easy curve.
Another way to think of this is "I need to understand the genre expectations" and work the mix in that general direction for whatever the genre. Especially true for non western pop.
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Re: Mixing Resources
It depends what is meant by "gain". If it's the preamp gain, this can't be true as the EQ is after the preamp.
If it's referring to clipping somewhere else in the signal chain then it makes sense. You are turning the signal down, but only in one frequency band.
You could sort of think of the EQ as being like a frequency-band-specific version of a fader.
Do you have a link to that video?
Chris
It depends what is meant by "gain". If it's the preamp gain, this can't be true as the EQ is after the preamp.
If it's referring to clipping somewhere else in the signal chain then it makes sense. You are turning the signal down, but only in one frequency band.
You could sort of think of the EQ as being like a frequency-band-specific version of a fader.
Do you have a link to that video?
Chris
Re: Mixing Resources
1) In the example, 100 was a corner. It will then drop at what, 6, maybe 12dB/octave. The 82.41 is not erased, it is lowered by a few dB
2) See #1.
Grok carefully the concept of dB/octave. I am sure you know this, but absolutely nothing starts or stops at whatever frequency is chosen.
To bad I'm so far away. Love to have you stop by and play at one of my gigs.
Chris.
2 things to keep in mind....
1) In the example, 100 was a corner. It will then drop at what, 6, maybe 12dB/octave. The 82.41 is not erased, it is lowered by a few dB
2) See #1.
Grok carefully the concept of dB/octave. I am sure you know this, but absolutely nothing starts or stops at whatever frequency is chosen.
To bad I'm so far away. Love to have you stop by and play at one of my gigs.
Chris.
Re: Mixing Resources
Adam,
Taking Silas' very useful principle a step further, here's a practical example:
The "crack" of a drum stick hitting a tom has frequency content almost to the top of the audible range, but simply because that is the case doesn't mean you want/need all of that crack in the mix. This is especially true with cymbal HF bleeding into almost every microphone on stage, especially the tom mics! Since 90% of the time for live RnR you'd like less cymbals, and often leave cymbal microphones off entirely, cleaning up the toms is a useful endeavor.
Starting with the tom mics to eliminate extra HF is a good place. Now, you can use some gating or downward expansion to help, but every time the gate opens, you get a big 'ol mouth full of extra cymbal "wash." So, in addition to a little gating (I personally use downward expansion, it is less dramatic than gating), you'll want to roll off all of the extra high frequencies out of the tom microphones. Also common is to boost the remaining "crack" of the toms to give them some more cut.
A fairly common configuration for me with toms is something like this: Boost tom mic to taste around 4-5kHz, and cut everything above 5-6kHz. On a console like the Midas Pro series, this is achieved with a built in low pass filter, and on something like the Presonus, you set the high shelf to maximum cut, and roll it down in frequency to taste. The boost is there to give enough "crack" to the drum, but without all the other high frequencies to go along with it.
This general principle can be applied to many different sources, and the equivalent process can be done on the low frequency side with a high pass, as Silas and others mentioned.
As a PS, once you get used to doing this, you'll wish that more consoles had a dedicated low pass filter on each channel.
Adam,
Taking Silas' very useful principle a step further, here's a practical example:
The "crack" of a drum stick hitting a tom has frequency content almost to the top of the audible range, but simply because that is the case doesn't mean you want/need all of that crack in the mix. This is especially true with cymbal HF bleeding into almost every microphone on stage, especially the tom mics! Since 90% of the time for live RnR you'd like less cymbals, and often leave cymbal microphones off entirely, cleaning up the toms is a useful endeavor.
Starting with the tom mics to eliminate extra HF is a good place. Now, you can use some gating or downward expansion to help, but every time the gate opens, you get a big 'ol mouth full of extra cymbal "wash." So, in addition to a little gating (I personally use downward expansion, it is less dramatic than gating), you'll want to roll off all of the extra high frequencies out of the tom microphones. Also common is to boost the remaining "crack" of the toms to give them some more cut.
A fairly common configuration for me with toms is something like this: Boost tom mic to taste around 4-5kHz, and cut everything above 5-6kHz. On a console like the Midas Pro series, this is achieved with a built in low pass filter, and on something like the Presonus, you set the high shelf to maximum cut, and roll it down in frequency to taste. The boost is there to give enough "crack" to the drum, but without all the other high frequencies to go along with it.
This general principle can be applied to many different sources, and the equivalent process can be done on the low frequency side with a high pass, as Silas and others mentioned.
As a PS, once you get used to doing this, you'll wish that more consoles had a dedicated low pass filter on each channel.
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Re: Mixing Resources
I love this thread...but I also hate it because so far I have yet to see any of you close enough to Colorado to consider it a day trip to hang out and learn some things from you all.
I love this thread...but I also hate it because so far I have yet to see any of you close enough to Colorado to consider it a day trip to hang out and learn some things from you all.