Money up front

[Lee Douglas]

Re: Money up front

Let's face it; the only reason for a purchaser to not pay for services up front is because they either don't have the money or they want the option to not pay you when the event is over. Is this someone you want to be working for? There are, of course, personal exceptions with established clients that you may or may not be willing to make exceptions for, but that becomes your risk at that point, not theirs.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Money up front

Let's face it; the only reason for a purchaser to not pay for services up front is because they either don't have the money or they want the option to not pay you when the event is over. Is this someone you want to be working for? There are, of course, personal exceptions with established clients that you may or may not be willing to make exceptions for, but that becomes your risk at that point, not theirs.

Let's face it, the only reason for a vendor to demand to be paid up front is they either don't think the client's word (and signed contract, if applicable) is good, or they want the option to not provide the agreed upon services. Is this somebody you want to hire?

Two sides to every transaction...

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Money up front

Let's face it, the only reason for a vendor to demand to be paid up front is they either don't think the client's word (and signed contract, if applicable) is good, or they want the option to not provide the agreed upon services. Is this somebody you want to hire?

Two sides to every transaction...

There may be two sides to the conversation, and it's a valid point that the vendor may not trust the client to be paid. However, I'm guessing you will find far more vendors that got screwed by clients that didn't have cash at the end of an event than clients that got screwed by vendors that didn't show up after being paid in advance. If you look at how the rest of the majority of vendors are paid at the event, you should be paid the same way. Eg, do you pay for the tents before they are set up, or when they are taken down? Do you pay the caterer after the meal or before? Do you pay for the beer before it's delivered, or when they come pick up the empties? While there may be exceptions to the rule, most of the vendors are paid ahead of time. Why should you be any different?

 

[Lee Douglas]

Re: Money up front

... (and signed contract, if applicable) ...

And in my contract, that you signed, it explicitly states...

Point taken though, but I agree with Brian below. I just think even for low profile, small vendor sound companies, it's a good idea to establish your payment terms and require a deposit to hold the date and the balance to open the truck doors at the event. A client's remedy for not getting something they weren't willing to pay for and wasn't include in the invoice, shouldn't be withholding an arbitrary amount while paying at the end of the event, if you can find them.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Money up front

There may be two sides to the conversation, and it's a valid point that the vendor may not trust the client to be paid. However, I'm guessing you will find far more vendors that got screwed by clients that didn't have cash at the end of an event than clients that got screwed by vendors that didn't show up after being paid in advance. If you look at how the rest of the majority of vendors are paid at the event, you should be paid the same way. Eg, do you pay for the tents before they are set up, or when they are taken down? Do you pay the caterer after the meal or before? Do you pay for the beer before it's delivered, or when they come pick up the empties? While there may be exceptions to the rule, most of the vendors are paid ahead of time. Why should you be any different?

And how many sound companies pay their freelancers in advance?

 

[Eric Lenasbunt]

Re: Money up front

And how many sound companies pay their freelancers in advance?

That's not a fair comparison. For me to provide production I have expenses prior to the gig, shop prep and truck loading time and truck fuel, and often several hundred in cross rentals. If I show and don't get paid that can add up fast.

While I respect that a freelancer has booked the day and loses money if not paid it is much more likely that they can get their money or the company will lose its rep fast and no freelancers will work for them.

That said a freelancer should also have amount and terms in writing with the soundco.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Money up front

That's not a fair comparison. For me to provide production I have expenses prior to the gig, shop prep and truck loading time and truck fuel, and often several hundred in cross rentals. If I show and don't get paid that can add up fast.

While I respect that a freelancer has booked the day and loses money if not paid it is much more likely that they can get their money or the company will lose its rep fast and no freelancers will work for them.

That said a freelancer should also have amount and terms in writing with the soundco.

How is this an unfair comparison? If you exclude cross-rentals (which are either a business decision based on business plan, or specifically requested by the client, and so should be billed separately) and business overhead (telephone, rent, etc.), the expenses the sound company incurs are time (labor), fuel, and opportunity cost. There's also equipment depreciation, but that's generally a fixed capital expense. Interestingly enough, a freelancer also has the same expenses, although perhaps to a lesser extent (including the equipment depreciation if the freelancer is bringing any tools, and business overhead). If I show up to a gig as a freelancer and don't get paid, I'm out gas money and potentially more if I turned down other work.

 

[Eric Lenasbunt]

Re: Money up front

So we are excluding the equipment maintenance, purchase, upkeep and general business overhead from the comparison? That was exactly my point.

As a company providing gear the gear must be purchased, maintained, accessories and cables tailored to a gig, loaded, stored, driven to the gig, etc.
PLUS the. The items in common with a freelancer like labor, gas and opportunity cost.

I'm sorry, but as one who has been both a freelancer and a Soundco owner I can tell you it is WAY less of a big deal if you get stiffed on a freelance gig. It's never good, but WAY worse as the company. And as the company I also get the pleasure of paying my employees and freelancers even if I get stiffed. (Part of why I get money up front, so the freelancer's check is good at the end of the show...)

Diesel fuel and commercial truck and liability insurance aren't cheap either, definitely more than the Toyota Corolla the freelancer rolls up in...

Again, I'm not saying it's ok or doesn't completely suck to get stiffed, but I still don't think it's a fair comparison.

On another note, I can only remember once in the last year where a new client even flinched at being asked to pay 50/50 terms. That promoter was as shady as they come and it was a horrible day of money hunting.

Also, when I freelanced and was asked to do a gig with decent travel or during the busiest time of year I sometimes did ask for (and receive) a booking deposit/retainer. Sometimes it is reasonable.

So feel free to NOT ask for a deposit, as for me it's not an option with a new client anymore. Repeat clients may get different terms of requested, government and higher Ed is usually on their terms, but in the end most reasonable people don't think twice about a deposit

 

[Tim Duffin]

Re: Money up front

Let's face it, the only reason for a vendor to demand to be paid up front is they either don't think the client's word (and signed contract, if applicable) is good, or they want the option to not provide the agreed upon services. Is this somebody you want to hire?

Two sides to every transaction...

That is not the only reason to require %50. I explicitly do that to prevent another vendor from coming in at the last minute and taking the show for 1/5th of the agreed upon price. If the client has already paid something, they are much less likely to allow another smooth talking cheaper-than-you sound company to slide in at the last minute and take the gig. "Doing Sound" is mostly a laymans game, there is nothing complicated or challenging about the entire field of live audio and there is always a company who can do everything cheaper or free just to "get in the biz." That is why there are so many people doing it and the reason that this discussion even exists. If live audio were in any way challenging, the number of people vying for gigs would shrink dramatically.

And while we are on the subject, the only reason any freelance sound guys get paid anything is because the company is too lazy to call other sound people, so its easier to have the same guys return for the next show. Freelance sound people are a dime a billion and many of them get stiffed all the time because the desire to "do sound" exceeds the demand for their talent. So, lets say I have 8 shows and 50 freelance people to choose from. I could (if I wanted) book them all for shows and pay none of them ever because there are always more available who want to do that specific work.

 

[Ron Kimball]

Re: Money up front

^ Oy Vey :roll:

 

[Eric Lenasbunt]

Re: Money up front

That is not the only reason to require %50. I explicitly do that to prevent another vendor from coming in at the last minute and taking the show for 1/5th of the agreed upon price. If the client has already paid something, they are much less likely to allow another smooth talking cheaper-than-you sound company to slide in at the last minute and take the gig. "Doing Sound" is mostly a laymans game, there is nothing complicated or challenging about the entire field of live audio and there is always a company who can do everything cheaper or free just to "get in the biz." That is why there are so many people doing it and the reason that this discussion even exists. If live audio were in any way challenging, the number of people vying for gigs would shrink dramatically.

And while we are on the subject, the only reason any freelance sound guys get paid anything is because the company is too lazy to call other sound people, so its easier to have the same guys return for the next show. Freelance sound people are a dime a billion and many of them get stiffed all the time because the desire to "do sound" exceeds the demand for their talent. So, lets say I have 8 shows and 50 freelance people to choose from. I could (if I wanted) book them all for shows and pay none of them ever because there are always more available who want to do that specific work.

Please tell us what city you are in and what your company is. I think it would be great for freelancers and other companies to know you have zero respect for them or intention to pay them. I don't think not paying people will last long, if nothing else you will start getting reported to the state and probably sued.

Your profile says you have CTS certification, yet you think there is nothing difficult about live sound?!?

I probably shouldn't have dignified this rant with a response...

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Money up front

Please tell us what city you are in and what your company is. I think it would be great for freelancers and other companies to know you have zero respect for them or intention to pay them. I don't think not paying people will last long, if nothing else you will start getting reported to the state and probably sued.

Your profile says you have CTS certification, yet you think there is nothing difficult about live sound?!?

I probably shouldn't have dignified this rant with a response...

The worst thing is that Tim has a very solid insight into the truth of the local freelance market - there are always plenty of people who are vying for the job who are willing to take some shit to get paid semi-regularly, and it doesn't take too much skill to get these shittier gigs.

The part he left out is that techs who are good at their jobs and are on it, 24/7 and have that extra level of attention to detail, technical instinct, customer service and artistic talent are very, very hard to come by.

In other words, the same as everywhere else. I don't think Tim was saying that getting great sound is necessarily easy. I do believe that he was pointing out that the "good enough" bar for those outside of our group of technicians is rather low at the local club/bar level especially. I also don't believe Tim intends NOT to pay people. I would assume that this is more an extension of his previous opinions and how things could potentially play out if he lacked respect for other people and their time.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Money up front

That is not the only reason to require %50. I explicitly do that to prevent another vendor from coming in at the last minute and taking the show for 1/5th of the agreed upon price. If the client has already paid something, they are much less likely to allow another smooth talking cheaper-than-you sound company to slide in at the last minute and take the gig. "Doing Sound" is mostly a laymans game, there is nothing complicated or challenging about the entire field of live audio and there is always a company who can do everything cheaper or free just to "get in the biz." That is why there are so many people doing it and the reason that this discussion even exists. If live audio were in any way challenging, the number of people vying for gigs would shrink dramatically.

And while we are on the subject, the only reason any freelance sound guys get paid anything is because the company is too lazy to call other sound people, so its easier to have the same guys return for the next show. Freelance sound people are a dime a billion and many of them get stiffed all the time because the desire to "do sound" exceeds the demand for their talent. So, lets say I have 8 shows and 50 freelance people to choose from. I could (if I wanted) book them all for shows and pay none of them ever because there are always more available who want to do that specific work.

And this is the crux of the issue, because in many locales, the same dynamic exists between promoters and sound companies.

 

[Eric Lenasbunt]

Re: Money up front

And this is the crux of the issue, because in many locales, the same dynamic exists between promoters and sound companies.

I see the same sad reality, but as a serious company we don't concern ourselves too much with it. Misery loves company and I don't love misery, those promoters and soundco's belong together. As for us we will work with promoters and venues that share our passion for high quality product. I actually would rather avoid many of the debacles that are these bottom feeder, low ball type of gigs.

We also find that the good promoters that are initially trying to save a buck will call us after a bad experience or two and understand why we charge more. You pay a premium for real professionals.

 

[Tim Duffin]

Re: Money up front

Please tell us what city you are in and what your company is. I think it would be great for freelancers and other companies to know you have zero respect for them or intention to pay them. I don't think not paying people will last long, if nothing else you will start getting reported to the state and probably sued.

Your profile says you have CTS certification, yet you think there is nothing difficult about live sound?!?

I probably shouldn't have dignified this rant with a response...

I was actually unaware that my profile mentioned CTS. I used to hire lots of sound techs when I was the A1 at the Sacramento Convention Center, almost all of them sucked and were easily replaceable. Now, I choose not to do sound because I feel that live audio is a complete waste of time and doesn't pay well, I can call 5 sound companies and get at least one of them to do the show for free by telling them what the other company was bidding. This does not sound like my sort of career.

I have left live audio completely and now I am an actual engineer instead of a "sound engineer", which is tremendously more difficult. I literally can't find anyone to do it and I have million dollar projects coming out my ears. In fact, if anyone knows of any videoconferencing engineers in California who have certs and CAD experience I am hiring right now! 6 figures to start, no BS. If you don't want to work for me, I can point you to 16 companies and 4 recruiters who will hire you today.

Job ads aside, sound is much more than a technical service. People use the field of live audio as a social medium. Even if some sound companies are not getting paid, they are still getting something in the form of gratification for being part of the show. In my case, I will only do sound for my friends if they are doing a show I want to go to, mostly because I want it to sound good if I am going to be there.