NAMM 2014 report

[John Roberts]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Like you I favor an active crossover. I like to know if that is what I'm buying.
The other parts of your post I know as well. There is of course a big difference between the voltage an active crossovers cap needs to handle compared to a passive , post amp cap. (hoping of course the active cap was sized right as well)

Not to put too fine a point on this. I actually wrote about this in my old "Audio Mythology" column back in the '80s. The primary difference and source of problems with caps used in passive vs active crossovers is the current. A passive crossover cap is passing the full current coming from the amp and going to the loudspeaker driver. In an active filter, the current is rarely even mA level (thousandths of an amp). All the subtle non-linear impedance aspects of real world caps become amplified by the high current and audibly significant.

DSP that doesn't even use capacitors to make filters can be arbitrarily linear and accurate.

If I'm looking at 2 equal packaged, sounding and priced boxes that offer the same performance. One has a single amp and a passive crossover. The other with a bi amp system. I would purchase the bi amp box. That is what I would want. The EV speaker doesn't seem to be clear as to that fact. So I asked.

If they both offer the same performance the simpler the implementation the more reliable, while I wouldn't expect performance to really be the same.

Don't care if it says EV, JBL or Danley on the box. I want to know what I'm going to buy including how the split between the horn and woofer is done.

Douglas R. Allen

Yes, the customer is entitled to know, and marketers bend over backwards to give them any information they think will be perceived positively and influence their purchase decision. It is cranky old design engineers like me that don't appreciate the second guessing by customers who mainly don't know what they don't know. For every Douglas Allen there are several thousand with opinions but no clue.

YMMV

JR

 

[Chris Johnson]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Like you I favor an active crossover. I like to know if that is what I'm buying.
If I'm looking at 2 equal packaged, sounding and priced boxes that offer the same performance. One has a single amp and a passive crossover. The other with a bi amp system. I would purchase the bi amp box. That is what I would want. The EV speaker doesn't seem to be clear as to that fact. So I asked.

Why?

Surely given the choice between two equally performing systems, the simpler one (ie passive) always wins? not to mention it works out cheaper. Less amps = less $$$

Does that mean you would never use a D&B box? They are market leaders and all their mid-hi boxes have a passive crossover somewhere. Even J has a passive mid-hi...

 

[John Roberts]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Why?

Surely given the choice between two equally performing systems, the simpler one (ie passive) always wins? not to mention it works out cheaper. Less amps = less $$$

I think i already said that but the unfortunate reality is that passive crossovers are pretty much inferior to all but the worst active crossovers (a lousy engineer can screw up anything including an active crossover.).

The short list of advantages for active crossovers is
1) better initial accuracy (crossover tuning does not depend on driver impedance).

2) less crossover point shift with use (from drivers and components heating up).

3) improved driver control (like damping) from driving each driver directly from a low impedance source. With passive XO the XO is in series with some of the drivers.

4) ability to execute more complex (better) crossover filters, (Steeper filters with simple active crossovers, incredibly complex filters including delay, phase, etc compensation with DSP).

5) Ability to monitor driver state and back off power if appropriate (this is possible with passive XO too, but passive systems are cruder so less effective, and less graceful).

6). etc

Does that mean you would never use a D&B box? They are market leaders and all their mid-hi boxes have a passive crossover somewhere. Even J has a passive mid-hi...

I would use a D&B box if someone gave them to me***.

I find that I am often at odds with popular opinion (like recent presidential elections). :-(

JR

*** actually I am more of a designer than user of such things, so please nobody send me D&B boxes. While I am not literally a big dog speaker designer and don't pretend to be, I do trust my judgement about how things work, just like about every customer.

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Thanks, David. Liverpool is all I really need to know. They are listed on the website. I can get details there. I don't see myself buying these, I was just more interested in what happened to the Behringer idea once Turbo had an influence.

I have another request if you find you have time. Soundcraft introduced a box called the Realtime Rack that integrates with Vi consoles and runs UAD plug ins. Tom Der has sent me all the printed info presently available, but I still have some questions about how it actually integrates and functions. It would be cool if you could stop by the Soundcraft booth and see if they have one hooked up and working. If so, see if Tom or Dom Harter could give you the nickel tour. Specific questions I have are. 1. It looks like the box connects to the consoles ethernet port and so I assume is networked. If so, can a wireless router still be connected at the same time and iPad control be used while the Realtime Rack is connected? 2. The spec sheet refers to the ability to store and recall channel strip presets and snapshots. i am unclear as to if this is all accomplished on the host computer or if it is integrated into the Vis snapshot system. Any understanding you could gain and share about this system would be cool. Thanks! Have fun!

 

[John Chiara]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Thanks, David. Liverpool is all I really need to know. They are listed on the website. I can get details there. I don't see myself buying these, I was just more interested in what happened to the Behringer idea once Turbo had an influence.

I have another request if you find you have time. Soundcraft introduced a box called the Realtime Rack that integrates with Vi consoles and runs UAD plug ins. Tom Der has sent me all the printed info presently available, but I still have some questions about how it actually integrates and functions. It would be cool if you could stop by the Soundcraft booth and see if they have one hooked up and working. If so, see if Tom or Dom Harter could give you the nickel tour. Specific questions I have are. 1. It looks like the box connects to the consoles ethernet port and so I assume is networked. If so, can a wireless router still be connected at the same time and iPad control be used while the Realtime Rack is connected? 2. The spec sheet refers to the ability to store and recall channel strip presets and snapshots. i am unclear as to if this is all accomplished on the host computer or if it is integrated into the Vis snapshot system. Any understanding you could gain and share about this system would be cool. Thanks! Have fun!

I have licenses for lots of UAD plugins...that would rock!

 

[drew gandy]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Hey Steve,

I got to see these but didn't get to hear them.

Any specific questions?

This is mostly arbitrary but... Are the subs made of 15mm or 18mm plywood? The specifications are contradictory.

They're called Liverpool.

The Titanic registered Liverpool as it's home port. Is there a connection?

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

*** actually I am more of a designer than user of such things, so please nobody send me D&B boxes. While I am not literally a big dog speaker designer and don't pretend to be, I do trust my judgement about how things work, just like about every customer.

Send them to me instead, I'll give them the love they deserve 8)~~

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Two coolest things I have seen:

1) A flute for children that has a bend in it, to maintain full length, but have the ergonomics of fingers in the right spot compared to the shoulders.
2) Dual concentric mid/hi compression driver with planar exit from BMS. 1671

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

David;
Should you happen to go by EV could you find out if their new ETX Speaker line is a TRUE Bi-Amp box or does it have a mono amp with a passive crossover? Their write up leaves me to believe it is a mono amp " 2000 W Class‑D power amplifier with integrated FIR‑Drive DSP " If they are a Bi-Amp box does the EXT-35P contain 3 amps or a passive split between mid and horn?

Thanks for anything you can find out.

Douglas R. Allen

They said they are using FIR processing. Why would they have passive crossovers? They are using 76dB per octave slope FIR filters for the crossover in the two-ways. I can only assume the three way is the same, but it could be an active two way with a passive Hi/Mid. I have a call in to my rep to verify.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

They said they are using FIR processing. Why would they have passive crossovers? They are using 76dB per octave slope FIR filters for the crossover in the two-ways. I can only assume the three way is the same, but it could be an active two way with a passive Hi/Mid. I have a call in to my rep to verify.

It is not unheard of to stay passive with one of the two crossovers for the lower power bandpasses of the speaker system if the drivers do not need steep roll-offs, to save cost of additional amplifier channel. In theory DSP correction could be used in combination with a passive XO to correct for some anticipated errors, while I do not know of this being done since any pre-correction gets applied to both bandpasses so not common practice.

I would be inclined to keep all crossover filters inside the digital domain unless this is a deep value product requiring sharp pencil pricing.

JR

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

It is not unheard of to stay passive with one of the two crossovers for the lower power bandpasses of the speaker system if the drivers do not need steep roll-offs, to save cost of additional amplifier channel. In theory DSP correction could be used in combination with a passive XO to correct for some anticipated errors, while I do not know of this being done since any pre-correction gets applied to both bandpasses so not common practice.

I would be inclined to keep all crossover filters inside the digital domain unless this is a deep value product requiring sharp pencil pricing.

JR

I am 99% sure they kept it all digital. Am getting confirmation.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Two coolest things I have seen:

1) A flute for children that has a bend in it, to maintain full length, but have the ergonomics of fingers in the right spot compared to the shoulders.
2) Dual concentric mid/hi compression driver with planar exit from BMS. 1671

Heh... that's funny, Jack, the coolest thing I've see is a 14" woofer with 3.5" coil from B&C, 14NDL88! :lol:

 

[Jonathan Goodall]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Hey Steve,

I got to see these but didn't get to hear them.

Any specific questions? Rigging seems nice with just a single piece on the back side of the boxes for setting angles.

They're called Liverpool.

You didn't happen to see a price for them at all? (Just out of interest)

Cheers

 

[Chris Johnson]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

I find that I am often at odds with popular opinion (like recent presidential elections). :-(

Ha!

And I agree with you man (about crossovers). I was merely highlighting the hypothetical of two equally performing systems. In reality, two things are almost never entirely equal

 

[John Roberts]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Ha!

And I agree with you man (about crossovers). I was merely highlighting the hypothetical of two equally performing systems. In reality, two things are almost never entirely equal

I am not actually a speaker engineer but I know enough about the basic technology to know that they will always be apples vs. oranges, no matter how close they compare with some limited measurements. So not a realistic hypothetical IMO.

JR

 

[Bob Harvey]

Re: NAMM 2014 report

Can't do press releases without working WiFi. Here's the new Midas M32-IP

View attachment 9078

Hi David ...

Could you judge if the rake angle of the screen on the M32 is acceptable for stand-up mixing?

I'm a tall guy and often find it a challenge to view a fixed angle display on certain consoles ... particularly when outside.

Thanks,