New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

I don't mean to minimize the impact on those this will affect, but it's premature to be crying WOLF for most of us. That said, I *almost* wish this were a national standard, say like the Building Code or NEC, to make uniform compliance easier and create a more level playing field. Oh well.
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Tim,

Those are some of the reasons the industry should be proactive about addressing the problem rather than reactive. I read through the initial mater from the Event Safety Alliance that Milt linked to, and I like the direction they are heading, especially the identification of specific roles and chain of command.

Here is the link again:

mission
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Jay Barracato said:
Tim,

Those are some of the reasons the industry should be proactive about addressing the problem rather than reactive. I read through the initial mater from the Event Safety Alliance that Milt linked to, and I like the direction they are heading, especially the identification of specific roles and chain of command.

Here is the link again:

mission
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Thanks for that link. I would rather have a group with knowledge writing these proposals than a representative. I know this is being looked at from the view of large structures but there are many smaller events this will effect depending on how it is written. Just hoping they keep this in mind in terms of realistic expectations in terms of inspections, permits, and cost. Cost aside, my biggest concern is the inspector. What is their qualifications. I have seen some more worried about a toe board than what was rigged from overhead and how it was rigged and most don't even know what a spanset is.
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

In the Uk or at least in my part of it if I want to hang loudspeakers in any of the local theatres or sheds then I need to be or employ a certified rigger, the kit has to have its load tests done each year and the certificates need to be available for inspection, this applies outdoors as well and the wind ratings are part of the certificates that should be available for inspection. The people who check the stages locally are usually civil or structural engineers and the ones Ive met in Glasgow and Edinburgh do know structures well enough to pass judgement, not sure how they go about towers for speaker hanging etc but as you have to supply the info prior to the event and towers are structures then I guess they are qualified enough to at least ask intelligent questions, any doubt or issue will normally result in at least a delay till satisfactory answers are found.
Edit: the inspectors are not the enemy as long as you provide the correct info and use the correct equipment in the correct way,, anyone see a theme here...........correct G
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Hi Gordon-

In the USA, city or county governments are usually in charge of code enforcement (as they also get to set their own Codes as part of "home rule"). For most of us who've dealt with local building inspectors, knowing they'll be the ones to go over roof structures and staging systems does not give us great enthusiasm.

It will require either creation of a different class of inspector, like the *real* engineers used in the UK/EU, or at least training existing inspectors to determine if any pre-approved engineering documents supplied by the designer/manufacturer have been implemented AS DESIGNED.

I've seen the fire inspector at many festivals, making sure the stage and roof were grounded and that proper fire extinguishers were deployed, checking flammability certificates... but I don't recall seeing a competent structural inspector. In fact, the last time I did a festival site design the folks that showed up for the meeting were me & my staff, a representative from law enforcement, emergency medical, and fire dept. Not a building or code inspector to be found. That's why some of the posters are concerned about how new codes will be dealt with.

In my locale, it's ironic that a wedding needs a permit to put up a tent on the family lawn, but we can build a load-bearing structure with almost no oversight. That isn't the case in many places, but for those who work in markets outside the top 50 or so, it's the way things are done.

It would have been nice if "the industry" could have agreed on a standard before the Indiana St. Fair last year, but it didn't. Enforcing it would have been a joke anyway; the people that hold the purse strings will simply give the "show must go on" orders. If the supplier doesn't agree he either won't get paid or sued for breach of contract if he withholds services... and he certainly wouldn't get re-hired.

All of this because somebody thought that playing the headline artist with impending violent storms was a good idea...
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Tim McCulloch said:
It would have been nice if "the industry" could have agreed on a standard before the Indiana St. Fair last year, but it didn't. Enforcing it would have been a joke anyway; the people that hold the purse strings will simply give the "show must go on" orders. If the supplier doesn't agree he either won't get paid or sued for breach of contract if he withholds services... and he certainly wouldn't get re-hired.

All of this because somebody thought that playing the headline artist with impending violent storms was a good idea...
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That is exactly what scares me.

It doesn't do any good to argue with them-they are looking at other factors.

You are right on target aobut not getting paid or rehired.

The "solution" would be that somebody has to go to jail -NOW- but determining who/where the problem is-is a totally different issue. Did the provider not provide the proper struecture? Or did some last minute change cause the problem? Did the promoter not provide the proper information?..


So let's say they are holding the doors for 10,000 people-and the problem will take 3 hours to "fix" (either going to get more structure-or lowering and rehanging something) or whatever. Let's assume the current problem in this case is the "props" the band INSISTS on hangning.

The Money guy wants to open the gates and tells the band to play anyway. Who is going to go to jail? The guy who opens the gate-who would lose his job if he didn't under direct order from the promoter?

If the sound guy kills the system-he won't get paid or rehired and the reputation.

What if the band won't play if they can't have their "toy".

Does the provider still turns the system on-even though he may go to jail?

What if the bands sound guy goes to jail for operating the system.

And so forth.

It would probably be rare that the actual guy ording the show must go on-that gets the blame for the problem.
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

It occurred to me that we have some of the greatest minds and most experienced techs in this field on this forum. We also have a do it yourself section. There is no reason why we can't come up with a SFNet set of regulations to help prevent accidents and raise the bar of excellence in our field. It makes more sense for us to pool ideas and experience and come up with things that need to be real standards rather than be told what to do later by regulations imposed by the unknowing. I am in front of government councils often and am willing to try to get a proposal passed in GA if we come up with the right thing. Regardless of enforcement or not "SFNet spec" has a nice ring to it. Anybody in?
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Philip LaDue said:
Eric, what you have described is exactly the reason why the Event Safety Alliiance was formed.
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Just looked them up. Looks like a great start with last Saturday being the first meeting. There may still be a need for discussion on the JV level depending on how far down the food chain the Event Safety Alliance reaches.
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Tim the person who is the license holder for the event is usually the responsible person and in my experience that is usually the promoter or at least part of his/her company so ultimately its where the responsibility lies so if an accident does happen then that's where the buck stops, sure there will be much squirming and ducking but the license holder is utimately responsible. One thing though because most of these rules have been in place for a few years now most touring bands etc work to them anyway so there is usually few issues on a big event, the problem ones are still the smaller fairs but again readily availabe equipment tends to comply so it is much more unlikely that a stage made of radio antenna will show up. A a poorly constructed trailer stage showed up at a gig a while back and the owner had the inspector on his tail for most of the morning while he got it up to an accetable level now that event would not have been able to use the stage if it hadn't been fixed, the event may have continued without the performances on the stage but the promoter would have been very silly to have forced the point and ran the stage because if anything had happened then he would be fined at least and maybe corporate manslaughter if someone had been killed. Private parties are another thing altogether but so far few if any hit the headlines probably again because the available gear meets code and the people who supply it tend to set it up as they are trained. G
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Tim McCulloch said:
I don't mean to minimize the impact on those this will affect, but it's premature to be crying WOLF for most of us. That said, I *almost* wish this were a national standard, say like the Building Code or NEC, to make uniform compliance easier and create a more level playing field. Oh well.
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And that's part of the potential problem as NEC is not a national standard and there is no single "Building Code", those are usually defined by the local government having jurisdiction. NEC/NFPA are guidelines created by a private organization and have no legal standing unless enacted into legislation, which may also amend them and/or reference older versions. And there are competing 'standards' that may actually be what is referenced. There are also multiple "Building Codes" that may be used and they may also be older versions and/or amended. The first step is determining who is the Authority Having Jurisdiction and what codes and ordinances actually apply for that site/event. That will probably also apply for anything like this.
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Brad Weber said:
And that's part of the potential problem as NEC is not a national standard and there is no single "Building Code", those are usually defined by the local government having jurisdiction. NEC/NFPA are guidelines created by a private organization and have no legal standing unless enacted into legislation, which may also amend them and/or reference older versions. And there are competing 'standards' that may actually be what is referenced. There are also multiple "Building Codes" that may be used and they may also be older versions and/or amended. The first step is determining who is the Authority Having Jurisdiction and what codes and ordinances actually apply for that site/event. That will probably also apply for anything like this.
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Hello,

actually, there is a "National Building Code". It's last revision was in/or around 1975. Of course, this minimal building standard addresses Residential properties and not Commercial or Industrial structures. Since the last revision, depending on subject jurisdiction, HUD, FEMA, and a whole slew of organizations can have input including, but not limited to the Insurance Industry, and Local and State Codes (when designated) . NFPA is a National Fire Code. BOCA, IBCO, ASHI, Ashrae (sp?) and other organizations have written Building Codes that can be "adopted" at the State or Local level.

But, all of the above organizations except the NFPA, again are primarily written for Residential Properties. Many States also have specific written Codes that address Industrial or Commercial Buildings and their design that go above and beyond ...for example: Earthquake resistant structures, Commercial & Industrial building for flood areas, high tidal areas and "soil-less" areas.

While, all this talk about inspections, building codes and safety codes in regards to "TEMPORARY" stages and stage roof systems are a great idea... I really believe that the industry needs to KEEP local building officials and their building departments OUT of this business. This business of hoisting a roof, truss filled with lighing, and hanging speaker or video systems is WAYYYY out of the technical scope of a traditional Building Code official.

Another, possibly bigger set of reasons is that City/County/State building Code offices are, (pardon me) civil servants. Their methods and time scale for the projects that they deal with now is ...how do I say? .... pretty laid back, casual, lethargic, etc... We generally work in a manner that allows us minimal time for loading in a gig. How would their casual methods affect our work, and profitability?

Also, one other big issue that I'd be concerned with is that most (if not all) State/County/City Building inspectors/Code officials are immune from prosecution in regards to errors and ommissions. In other words...if they screw up....it's not their fault. It's everyone else's fault. The harshest punishment that I've ever heard of in the State of Michigan, is that the Inspector was "early retired".

As someone else had posted, if we want to keep the B.S. out of our business, we need to adopt cleary defined codes pertanent to our Stages and Roof Systems. We need to formally adopt clearly defined, safety margins (that most riggers have been using anyway) for structural steel, hanging points, hardware & fixtures, etc... And, if there is to be formal inspections on a Stage, Roof System or rigged gear, we need to write a clearly defined set of documents that dictate who/whom and how one could earn the title of Staging inspector and a clear set of appropriate fees. This new "Inspector" should bear all of the responsibilities/liabilities if he signs off on a project.

One concern that Mr. McCulloch and I have repeatedly ranted about, that inspections will not address, is that of Storms. We also need a clearly defined set of rules in regards to storms, weather, and evacuations. These decisions need to be taken away from the Entertainment, Promoters, and Show Producers.

Cheers,
Hammer
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

gordon mcgregor said:
Tim the person who is the license holder for the event is usually the responsible person and in my experience that is usually the promoter or at least part of his/her company so ultimately its where the responsibility lies so if an accident does happen then that's where the buck stops, sure there will be much squirming and ducking but the license holder is utimately responsible. One thing though because most of these rules have been in place for a few years now most touring bands etc work to them anyway so there is usually few issues on a big event, the problem ones are still the smaller fairs but again readily availabe equipment tends to comply so it is much more unlikely that a stage made of radio antenna will show up. A a poorly constructed trailer stage showed up at a gig a while back and the owner had the inspector on his tail for most of the morning while he got it up to an accetable level now that event would not have been able to use the stage if it hadn't been fixed, the event may have continued without the performances on the stage but the promoter would have been very silly to have forced the point and ran the stage because if anything had happened then he would be fined at least and maybe corporate manslaughter if someone had been killed. Private parties are another thing altogether but so far few if any hit the headlines probably again because the available gear meets code and the people who supply it tend to set it up as they are trained. G
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In 90%+ of locales in the USA, there is not event licensing. Period. An amazing number of municipalities and most of the states do not require more than a sanitation permit.

As you aren't replying under my post, I'm not sure which one you're commenting on (waiting on coffee to brew....), but Things Are Very Different Here® with regards to events. Specifically regarding the Indiana State Fair, the event is run by an auxiliary unit of state government with scores of private contractors providing services on state-owned property. One would think the state to have a vested interest in the welfare of its citizens and visitors, but when it comes to concerts the "show must go on" mentality is what got people killed and injured, and that responsibility is with the State Fair official in charge. Rather than deal with liability that could reach into hundreds of US$millions, the state legislature previously created a law that specifically limited the ability of those injured by actions of state officials to sue for damages in excess of an arbitrary limit. Why exercise extreme caution if you can't lose your job or be held personally responsible, or cost the state huge settlements? I wish WE had that kind of immunity....

I continue to assert that the primary cause of loss of life in this extraordinary (but predictable) weather event was not solely a matter of the materials, methods, execution or design of the roof structure but the weasel-ass bullshit "leadership" from the Fair officials. Was this structure built to design? Was the design adequate for the weather (based on historic conditions)? Those are the 2 primary questions on the production industry side that must be addressed, followed by "how much over-design" is seen as necessary if clients are to continue dodging their responsibilities to the public.
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Here's a thought:

- Require event promoters to carry liability insurance for events w/flown equipment and/or stages over 4' tall
- Policy must be in place before the first piece of gear hits the ground.
- Policy liability increases directly proportional to the audience capacity.

If insurance is required before equipment can be unloaded, then once setup starts, you won't have government inspectors who don't know what they're doing wandering around getting in the way. The insurance companies would have specialized guys watching their investment/liability. It's not a perfect solution, but when big money is on the line, insurance companies get pretty serious
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Tim McCulloch said:
In 90%+ of locales in the USA, there is not event licensing. Period. An amazing number of municipalities and most of the states do not require more than a sanitation permit.

As you aren't replying under my post, I'm not sure which one you're commenting on (waiting on coffee to brew....), but Things Are Very Different Here® with regards to events. Specifically regarding the Indiana State Fair, the event is run by an auxiliary unit of state government with scores of private contractors providing services on state-owned property. One would think the state to have a vested interest in the welfare of its citizens and visitors, but when it comes to concerts the "show must go on" mentality is what got people killed and injured, and that responsibility is with the State Fair official in charge. Rather than deal with liability that could reach into hundreds of US$millions, the state legislature previously created a law that specifically limited the ability of those injured by actions of state officials to sue for damages in excess of an arbitrary limit. Why exercise extreme caution if you can't lose your job or be held personally responsible, or cost the state huge settlements? I wish WE had that kind of immunity....

I continue to assert that the primary cause of loss of life in this extraordinary (but predictable) weather event was not solely a matter of the materials, methods, execution or design of the roof structure but the weasel-ass bullshit "leadership" from the Fair officials. Was this structure built to design? Was the design adequate for the weather (based on historic conditions)? Those are the 2 primary questions on the production industry side that must be addressed, followed by "how much over-design" is seen as necessary if clients are to continue dodging their responsibilities to the public.
Click to expand...

+1

Hammer
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Steve Hurt said:
The insurance companies would have specialized guys watching their investment/liability. It's not a perfect solution, but when big money is on the line, insurance companies get pretty serious
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Interestingly enough, the insurance companies are what gave us the NEC, as well as most of the modern fire codes. The NFPA was founded by a group of insurance companies, and Factory Mutual had a similar set of standards prior to that.
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Charlie Zureki said:
Hello,

actually, there is a "National Building Code". It's last revision was in/or around 1975. Of course, this minimal building standard addresses Residential properties and not Commercial or Industrial structures. Since the last revision, depending on subject jurisdiction, HUD, FEMA, and a whole slew of organizations can have input including, but not limited to the Insurance Industry, and Local and State Codes (when designated) . NFPA is a National Fire Code. BOCA, IBCO, ASHI, Ashrae (sp?) and other organizations have written Building Codes that can be "adopted" at the State or Local level."
Click to expand...
Some countries have true national building codes as in codes that are applied nationally, however the United States leaves that up to state and local entities. It used to be common for state and local entities to create their own building codes with the result of greatly varying and often questionable codes. Thus industry organizations were formed to create model codes such as BOCA/NBC, UBC, IBC, SBC, NFPA, NEC, IFC, IPC, etc. However, even though they may use "National" in the name, those model codes actually have no legal standing nationally and or in general except as enacted and possibly revised by related legislation at a state and local level.

I agree that seems to lead to a potential situation of creating a model code that a) then has to be adopted on a state and/or local level to be applicable, b) may be revised on that state and/or local level, and c) has to be enforced at that state and/or local level by parties who may have limited related knowledge and experience.

The article Rob linked is all too accurate that the civil penalties may end up being determined not by culpability but rather by who has the deepest pockets.
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Brad Weber said:
Some countries have true national building codes as in codes that are applied nationally, however the United States leaves that up to state and local entities. It used to be common for state and local entities to create their own building codes with the result of greatly varying and often questionable codes. Thus industry organizations were formed to create model codes such as BOCA/NBC, UBC, IBC, SBC, NFPA, NEC, IFC, IPC, etc. However, even though they may use "National" in the name, those model codes actually have no legal standing nationally and or in general except as enacted and possibly revised by related legislation at a state and local level.

I agree that seems to lead to a potential situation of creating a model code that a) then has to be adopted on a state and/or local level to be applicable, b) may be revised on that state and/or local level, and c) has to be enforced at that state and/or local level by parties who may have limited related knowledge and experience.

The article Rob linked is all too accurate that the civil penalties may end up being determined not by culpability but rather by who has the deepest pockets.
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Hello Brad,,

I suppose my previous post wasn't specific enough...there was a National Building Code, and, by Law, it still exists today because it has not been inacted.

But, the main point of my post was that because of the diversity of climate, soils, tides, storm threats, earth quakes, etc... the Federal Government thought best that building codes should be established at the State and/or Local level because of the previously mentioned conditions and possible safety concerns. As an example: What may be applicable in a flood zone (pier footings) may be unnecessary/unwanted in an earthquake zone. OR, Housing insulation roof/ceiling values of R 48 needed in Minnesota may be unnecessary in Hawaii.

Also, there are some specific codes that the Federal Government had written in years past that are still the absolute code nation-wide, whether adopted by one of the Code writing agencies or not, they are still in effect: A habitable room must have a Skylight, a Window, or a door that provides natural light. and...a habitable room must have a minimum allowance of natural light that is at least 8% of the floor area.

Anyway...none of this matters because it is not for the most part applicable to Stages or Roof Systems...except the stair treads, stair riser heights, guard rails and hand rails.

Cheers,
Hammer
 
Re: New outdoor stage laws?!?!

Charlie Zureki said:
Anyway...none of this matters because it is not for the most part applicable to Stages or Roof Systems...except the stair treads, stair riser heights, guard rails and hand rails.
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I think the relevant aspect is that both application and enforcement would probably be on a state or local level, especially as seismic requirements, soil conditions, wind and snow loads, etc. would be relevant and do vary. That then leads to the local AHJ and their relevant knowledge and interpretation being factors. And if it is like other codes, even if they AHJ does 'approve' the staging, you are still going to be liable if something goes wrong.
 
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