Number of Engineers

Max Warasila

Max Warasila

Graduate
Feb 20, 2013
1,217
73
48
Richmond, VA
I have noticed a strange aspect about the number of very experienced sound engineers, and it's quite astounding to me. On one hand, there are a lot of people out there, in a lot of different places, doing a lot of different stuff. But at the same time, I get the feeling that there is a small enough number of professionals out there that you could, in theory, know and or work with most of them, if not a fair share. I don't mean crappy engineers, or people who are at lower levels all the time, but rather people who have worked at least one A level gig in their lifetimes and are good at their jobs.

I'm just wondering if I'm insane in this analysis or not. It just feels like there is a big number of engineers, but that there are a lot less experienced pros than one would expect, and they get around.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

What information are you basing this on?

On most forums like this one, I can count the number of active full-time touring professionals on the fingers of 1 or maybe 2 hands. Many are on crewspace, but that's a ghost town these days, and many more still have nothing to do with forums, facebook or any of it! So it all depends on how you're counting.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

The first hurdle to cross is getting a consensus on what constitutes an "A level Gig".

I call it anything I work at, just because the sound quality is so high! (Liberal use of emoticony thingies and general laughter here.)
 
Re: Number of Engineers

It seems to me... There are way more acts touring than there used to be. Experienced and good mixers do not just materialize because demand goes up. So, others get the gigs, hence, more and more shows sound really good....not.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

Depending on the context I sometimes describe myself as a design engineer as that is one thing I do. Some professional engineers will argue that I can't call myself that because I lack credentials. The electrons don't realize this, and generally do what I want them to. :-)

Based on what I do, at different times I am also a ditch digger, janitor, dishwasher, cook, etc...

JR
 
Re: Number of Engineers

John Roberts said:
Depending on the context I sometimes describe myself as a design engineer as that is one thing I do. Some professional engineers will argue that I can't call myself that because I lack credentials. The electrons don't realize this, and generally do what I want them to. :-)

Based on what I do, at different times I am also a ditch digger, janitor, dishwasher, cook, etc...

JR
Click to expand...

A synonum of "Engineer" is a "skillful contriver." I like that one better for describing what I do.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

Back in the mid 80s when I was in retail consumer electronics sales, one of my coworkers who was an aggressive sales person (and one of my apartment mates at the time), would often get into arguments about products and their features with electronics engineers. We worked in the the south bay of Los Angeles in the heyday of defense contractors like Hughes, TRW, Northrop, etc., so there were a lot of nerds. Whenever one of these customers would play their "I'm an engineer!" card in a heated discussion, my coworker would say, "oh, you're an engineer eh?" Then he'd make a pulling motion in the air and say "hoot! hoot! Where's your train?" I've seen a few customers leave in a huff over that. The owners of the store left him alone because he was selling machine, even if he didn't know what he was talking about much of the time.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

Okay, my misuse of "engineer" aside ("technician," perhaps?), I am looking at the number of good, experienced FoH/Monitor/System/Etc. techs out there. I am basing this on what Andrew said; the number of actively touring professionals on this forum is probably countable on one hand. But the number of good, experienced personnel is much larger, maybe a hundred or two. Then, look at the number of total forum members. There's 3351, of which I'd say about half of are at least decent people.

From these numbers, I feel like it is totally possible to know all of the good, experienced personnel, because even though there are a lot of personnel out there, there is a much smaller number of people who are good, experienced techs. You just have to get around, I guess.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

Max Warasila said:
Okay, my misuse of "engineer" aside ("technician," perhaps?), I am looking at the number of good, experienced FoH/Monitor/System/Etc. techs out there. I am basing this on what Andrew said; the number of actively touring professionals on this forum is probably countable on one hand. But the number of good, experienced personnel is much larger, maybe a hundred or two. Then, look at the number of total forum members. There's 3351, of which I'd say about half of are at least decent people.

From these numbers, I feel like it is totally possible to know all of the good, experienced personnel, because even though there are a lot of personnel out there, there is a much smaller number of people who are good, experienced techs. You just have to get around, I guess.
Click to expand...

Touring is about who knows you, not who you know. In the contemporary music touring biz there are some faces I see with different acts all year, every year. Back line techs, monitor guys/gals, system engineers (woo, wooo0000), FOH mixerpersons, production managers. They're good at what they do and they're easy to live with on the bus. And the tour manager hires accordingly...

Not sure how to sort out what makes someone an "A" act person because there are several layers of "A". But perhaps think about it this way: when l'Acoustic introduced the vDosc rig to the world, they did something mostly unheard of, i.e. black-boxing the system controller, required training for system owners and their employees, and specified what 3rd party equipment was allowed. What were they really selling, and who was the market for it?

The product was aural consistency, and the market was band engineers with enough clout/artist management backing to specify the system used. The idea was that a vDosc rig in an arena in Barcelona would sound very similar to a vDosc rig in an arena in Boise.... and Birmingham... etc. How many Band Mixerpersons (see why I don't abbreviate that?), world wide, have that kind of influence? I don't know but would wager that l'Acoustic had a pretty good idea.

The level of influence, and thus status, works down from there and the quantities get bigger.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

Tim McCulloch said:
Touring is about who knows you, not who you know. In the contemporary music touring biz there are some faces I see with different acts all year, every year. Back line techs, monitor guys/gals, system engineers (woo, wooo0000), FOH mixerpersons, production managers. They're good at what they do and they're easy to live with on the bus. And the tour manager hires accordingly...

Not sure how to sort out what makes someone an "A" act person because there are several layers of "A". But perhaps think about it this way: when l'Acoustic introduced the vDosc rig to the world, they did something mostly unheard of, i.e. black-boxing the system controller, required training for system owners and their employees, and specified what 3rd party equipment was allowed. What were they really selling, and who was the market for it?

The product was aural consistency, and the market was band engineers with enough clout/artist management backing to specify the system used. The idea was that a vDosc rig in an arena in Barcelona would sound very similar to a vDosc rig in an arena in Boise.... and Birmingham... etc. How many Band Mixerpersons (see why I don't abbreviate that?), world wide, have that kind of influence? I don't know but would wager that l'Acoustic had a pretty good idea.

The level of influence, and thus status, works down from there and the quantities get bigger.
Click to expand...

hmm………… maybe BMPs?
 
Re: Number of Engineers

John Roberts said:
Depending on the context I sometimes describe myself as a design engineer as that is one thing I do. Some professional engineers will argue that I can't call myself that because I lack credentials. The electrons don't realize this, and generally do what I want them to. :-)

Based on what I do, at different times I am also a ditch digger, janitor, dishwasher, cook, etc...

JR
Click to expand...
Agreed.

But there is a BIG difference between somebody who is doing component level design and some guy who knows that "up is loud".

I guess it all depends on how you look at it.

The funny thing is that my degree is AAS Electrical engineering-yet I had to basically teach my wife (who is a true EE) basic electronics in order for her to pass her FCC exam (back when they had a real test to get your license).

They taught more theory and physics, rather than practical usage/application.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

John Roberts said:
Depending on the context I sometimes describe myself as a design engineer as that is one thing I do. Some professional engineers will argue that I can't call myself that because I lack credentials. The electrons don't realize this, and generally do what I want them to. :-)

Based on what I do, at different times I am also a ditch digger, janitor, dishwasher, cook, etc...

JR
Click to expand...

Credentials should not be confused with a degree. You have more credentials than a large portion of all the degreed individuals in this field combined. Of your many patents there is one I still use and enjoy to this day, the FLS display on the Peavey equalizers and the Mentor. It is the knowledge and how one puts it to use that counts. Where one obtains said knowledge is really inconsequential.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

Ivan Beaver said:
Agreed.

But there is a BIG difference between somebody who is doing component level design and some guy who knows that "up is loud".

I guess it all depends on how you look at it.

The funny thing is that my degree is AAS Electrical engineering-yet I had to basically teach my wife (who is a true EE) basic electronics in order for her to pass her FCC exam (back when they had a real test to get your license).

They taught more theory and physics, rather than practical usage/application.
Click to expand...

You can be taught the theory of how to swim from a book in the classroom, or learn in a swimming pool...

Again a combination of both seems best.

JR
 
Re: Number of Engineers

Forgive me if I misunderstood the question, my theory is A) The 'A level' gigs are next to impossible to get if you aren't already doing them and B) the techs with the potential to be 'A level mixers' need to get some of those gigs to build the chops to do the mix and build the rep. So, you end up with a small pool of professionals doing everything, rusted on, little or no opportunity for new techs to join their ranks.
 
Re: Number of Engineers

There is an old saying that there is always room at the top. Of course experience and mixing chops are a large part of it but certainly not all of what it takes. Attitude and general personality are a big part of this equation. The ones that last and move up in this business all have a few things in common. You might get an A level gig at some point by being at the right place at the right time but you will not stay there or work for anyone else at that level if you are a problem. There are a few FOH guys that I seem to run into over the years with various national and regional acts that come through from time to time. It is always a pleasure to see them and get to work with them again and hear their mixes. Interestingly enough the ones that leave a bad impression I never see or hear about again. Your opportunities will come. In the meantime enjoy the ride, get some more experience, and be nice!
 
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