Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

C

Craig Hauber

Sophomore
Jan 20, 2011
242
1
18
53
Between Williston ND and Plentywood MT
www.mondaksound.com
Helping to direct a purchase here and I have read most of the posts regarding it that I can find in the search.

Still have 2 questions remaining:

1) Could you run the entire console from a computer connected to it using it's GUI software without touching the board itself? (other than pre-amps and patching)

2) Could you have another operator on the board at the same time doing monitor duties without FOH operator stepping on his every move?

(They use a Mackie TT-24 this way and it works fine but it is exhibiting problems, it's way too large physically for the space after planned renovations -and of course they have discontinued it)
The client is a high-end burlesque cabaret with a house ensemble that occupies 10ch. We've been doing a digital split on the mackie that puts each ch1-24 on it's corresponding 25-48 channels allowing a rather complex monitor mix situation without the house mix affecting it. I run FOH from a mezzanine with a cat-5 based KVM extender to a PC beside the mixer sidestage (so I'm running the machine natively not VNC) -However I can access it VNC from the other floors if needed

I remember trying this with yamaha desks and studio manager and surface can't be separated enough -selecting a channel on the GUI also does on the console and vice-versa

Unfortunately this is on a nightclub budget so any of the cooler Soundcraft, A&H etc.. options aren't within range right now.
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

I believe that Presonus' intention is that FOH use the console,and monitors uses the iPad (or multiples if musicians want to handle their own mixes), but it should be possible to go the other direction. I've mixed FOH from a MacBook while monitors were handled on the surface. All was well till we both tried to do the wrong something at the same time - the console crashed in a most unacceptable manner. Could be a coincidence.....
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

I have only used the presonus app on one show, with one operator, but it was a nightmare. Changes did not transfer properly when returning to the mixer, and sometimes when I selected a new monitor mix to edit, I was left making adjustments on the previous mix (even though the screen clearly showed that I had selected a new mix.) Also I had to reboot the app frequently.

Craig Hauber said:
I remember trying this with yamaha desks and studio manager and surface can't be separated enough -selecting a channel on the GUI also does on the console and vice-versa
Click to expand...

With the yamaha boards it is doable. The selected channel issue can be avoided by using the selected channel (alternate view) option on the tablet.
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Rick Stansby said:
I have only used the presonus app on one show, with one operator, but it was a nightmare. Changes did not transfer properly when returning to the mixer, and sometimes when I selected a new monitor mix to edit, I was left making adjustments on the previous mix (even though the screen clearly showed that I had selected a new mix.) Also I had to reboot the app frequently.



With the yamaha boards it is doable. The selected channel issue can be avoided by using the selected channel (alternate view) option on the tablet.
Click to expand...

PC or Mac??
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

1) Yes, the VSL editor / librarian / control application is continuously bi directional. Use a min of 1024 x 768 screen resolution or faders become knobs.

2) You'll not be able to do this independently of each other at the same time. It can be done if only one makes a move at a time. Not practical in combat.
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Steve Tarak said:
what wireless router Rick? was that also 2.4Ghz?
Click to expand...
The router I used was 2.4GHz. I had decent range. I can't remember the exact issue with connecting, but I believe that if I exited the app, I would have to "reboot" it before it would work again. By reboot, I mean that I had to hold down the home key on the iPad, and "X" out the suspended app, and then relaunch it.

I didn't give the app a lot of effort, but I did make it through one small show.
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Rick, the wireless should be no less than 5ghz capable as spec'd by Presonus. Make sure also that it is password protected. The app should remain open. Wireless chipset should be Texas Instruments preferably. Others have caused issues if not made for digital audio. Use a quality ethernet cable also. It will operate without it, however, you'll have a consistently more reliable setup.
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Steve Tarak said:
Rick, the wireless should be no less than 5ghz capable as spec'd by Presonus. Make sure also that it is password protected. The app should remain open. Wireless chipset should be Texas Instruments preferably. Others have caused issues if not made for digital audio. Use a quality ethernet cable also. It will operate without it, however, you'll have a consistently more reliable setup.
Click to expand...

2.4GHz vs 5GHz has nothing to do with bandwidth*, I wonder why they would recommend that? I'd assume that any wireless N setup (on 2.4GHz) would be fine, since it's faster than a 100M wired connection.

In fact, 5GHz wireless A is still 54Mbps but has less range than wireless G. Not sure how wireless N/5GHz stacks up, but logically the higher than frequency, the shorter the range.

I'd consider using an open network, but with MAC address filtering (access control) enabled such that only your computers can connect to it. I recommend this because encryption requires significant CPU overhead on both ends to encrypt/decrypt. I know when I tether my phone, it can barely handle encrypting the connection, but with the network open (and MAC filtering on) it works great.

*I have to insert a little footnote here, irrespective of protocol, higher frequency does allow higher data rates. But with the wireless standards implemented these days, the 5GHz band is intended to avoid interference, not provide higher data rates.
 
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Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Silas Pradetto said:
Absolutely. Stack up as many surfaces and computers as you want- the iDR just does what it's told.
Click to expand...

That's cool. It's been a while since I've desperately wanted an expensive piece of gear I can't afford and for which I have no use but I keep trying to find some justification to own one. :blush: It's exactly what I wanted back when I spent more time on that side of the stage. I figure this type of thing is going to become standard in the next couple of years and prices will drop, not that it isn't a good deal for what you get.
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Philip Roberts said:
I may be blowing smoke but I think that some where I remeber reading that there is a limit of 15-16 connected devices. Not sure where I picked this up. Perhaps the i-Live forums. I could also be wrong.

Philip
Click to expand...

OK, maybe there is a theoretical limit. I doubt there will ever be an application that needs 16 surfaces controlling one iDR rack (unless you're just trying to look cool, one channel per surface!) :lol:
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Silas Pradetto said:
In fact, 5GHz wireless A is still 54Mbps but has less range than wireless G. Not sure how wireless N/5GHz stacks up, but logically the higher than frequency, the shorter the range.
Click to expand...

It only has less range when it has to go through obstacles like walls. Range is also largely dependent on the antenna used, beam pattern, and ERP (effective radiated power). Lower freqs are desirable when using shower type antennas when covering a wide area in hill/valley terrain. This is why the TV Band is so sought after by mobile communications providers. In a line-of-sight link I don't think frequency plays much of a role (except that atmospheric conditions can adversely affect certain frequencies). Satellite TV uses the Ka and Ku band (Ka is like 30GHz). Their propagation distance is quite good. :)

I have to insert a little footnote here, irrespective of protocol, higher frequency does allow higher data rates. But with the wireless standards implemented these days, the 5GHz band is intended to avoid interference, not provide higher data rates.
Click to expand...

This was mostly true of older FM techniques. ODFM, QAM, PSK, VSB and other modulation types can overcome "1 bit per cycle" limitations. A bigger influence on data rates is bandwidth, not frequency. Granted, it's easier to get more bandwidth at a higher frequency. Even still, modulation techniques can trump bandwidth too.

In general though, I'm not sure why they would specify 5 Ghz over 2.4 GHz. The only thing I can think of is that since the 5 GHz band is less crowded, the overall effective throughput will generally be higher.
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Answers:

1) Yes you can. The other thing you must do on the surface is "tap tempo". That is not available on the VSL or iPad remote app. I have been using VSL for nearly as long as it has been available. I have been using the iPad app for a few months now. I prefer the iPad app over the VSL. Which leads me to;

2) Yes. Another operator can use the VSL on a wireless laptop. However, if you select a channel on the laptop, the console will also select that channel preventing the console op from doing what ever it was they were doing. They will be fighting each other. The iPad app, on the other hand, does not interfere with the console operator. The caveat on this is the console op will need to regularly update the mix with the locate function. (Unless the iPad op is only mixing monitors) More than one iPad is allowed (I believe up to 16), so each band member could mix their own monitor independent of either the console op or the iPad op. Changes made on the console can be seen in real time on the iPad and vice-versa. Either FOH mix or any monitor mix




Craig Hauber said:
Helping to direct a purchase here and I have read most of the posts regarding it that I can find in the search.

Still have 2 questions remaining:

1) Could you run the entire console from a computer connected to it using it's GUI software without touching the board itself? (other than pre-amps and patching)

2) Could you have another operator on the board at the same time doing monitor duties without FOH operator stepping on his every move?

(They use a Mackie TT-24 this way and it works fine but it is exhibiting problems, it's way too large physically for the space after planned renovations -and of course they have discontinued it)
The client is a high-end burlesque cabaret with a house ensemble that occupies 10ch. We've been doing a digital split on the mackie that puts each ch1-24 on it's corresponding 25-48 channels allowing a rather complex monitor mix situation without the house mix affecting it. I run FOH from a mezzanine with a cat-5 based KVM extender to a PC beside the mixer sidestage (so I'm running the machine natively not VNC) -However I can access it VNC from the other floors if needed

I remember trying this with yamaha desks and studio manager and surface can't be separated enough -selecting a channel on the GUI also does on the console and vice-versa

Unfortunately this is on a nightclub budget so any of the cooler Soundcraft, A&H etc.. options aren't within range right now.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

It has been my experience that a cisco 2.4Ghz router works well when there is not a lot of other networks present in the room. I have had dropouts like Rick Stansby experienced, but only with the iPad I. The iPad II, when it drops the network, can be re-connected by pressing the "connect" button on the app home page. You don't have to "X" the app like the first version iPad needs.

I have not tried to use a 5Ghz router yet. But, it's high on the list of wants in my system.




Ryan Lantzy said:
It only has less range when it has to go through obstacles like walls. Range is also largely dependent on the antenna used, beam pattern, and ERP (effective radiated power). Lower freqs are desirable when using shower type antennas when covering a wide area in hill/valley terrain. This is why the TV Band is so sought after by mobile communications providers. In a line-of-sight link I don't think frequency plays much of a role (except that atmospheric conditions can adversely affect certain frequencies). Satellite TV uses the Ka and Ku band (Ka is like 30GHz). Their propagation distance is quite good. :)



This was mostly true of older FM techniques. ODFM, QAM, PSK, VSB and other modulation types can overcome "1 bit per cycle" limitations. A bigger influence on data rates is bandwidth, not frequency. Granted, it's easier to get more bandwidth at a higher frequency. Even still, modulation techniques can trump bandwidth too.

In general though, I'm not sure why they would specify 5 Ghz over 2.4 GHz. The only thing I can think of is that since the 5 GHz band is less crowded, the overall effective throughput will generally be higher.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Presonus Digital Mixer Questions

Ryan Lantzy said:
It only has less range when it has to go through obstacles like walls....
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that, all else equal, higher RF frequencies had higher attenuation in air (kind of like sound).

I found a chart that shows this (look at the second one). Atmospheric absorption could easily be 4 times as bad for 5GHz vs 2.4GHz.

The 802.11 spec is quite interesting. It seems that recently 802.11a was expanded to include 3.7GHz with a rather ridiculous range. Maybe Presonus should recommend that one, even though I've never seen a device that uses 3.7GHz 802.11a!
 
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