presonus still alive?

[Arik Semagin]

Re: presonus still alive?

What? You are WAY off. There is nothing analog about it, aside from the preamps. Where do you get this stuff? It does not have to have motorized faders and what no to be "digital".

Sorry, Brett, I responded to this post before reading your others. Don't get me wrong, Presonus SL boards are great, I had 24.4.2 for a year. I am not badmouthing them in no way! They have their unique market niche, and they will sell. What they lack is functionality. I understand it's all digital processing inside, from preamps to D/A converters on output, BUT no flexibility as in true digital mixers (even Yamaha 01V96, not talking about X32/M32). Functional layout is analog, aside Selected Channel section (which is great for folks stepping up from basic analog desks).

Note that I refer to 1st generation SL24.4.2, not AI, one that I had. So, it has:

1. Fixed routing. Input one always feeds channels one and can never be routed elsewhere. Yes, you can substitute it with FW playback from laptop, but it's not the same as routing in truly digital mixer (any input to any channel and any output to any of OMNI out jacks). Output always LR/mono, no L/C/R.
2. Fixed bus structure, only 4 buses
3. No DCA/VCA groups
4. Rudimentary effects. Though all sounds good.

Kind of relief is that you still can use outboard effects via auxes if you don't need to run 10 monitor mixes ( I used TC M-One and D-Two), and analog-style TRS channel inserts. Surface design is second to none. It's got the style, definitely an eye-catcher, not like many other similarly-sized desks.

SL24.4.2 is GREAT! I got it after Mackie 32-4 (also a great basic analog board, paid for itself many times over), it was a freaking relief! I'm not the first to note it, it's functionally an analog board with digital processing everywhere you want it to be, which is GREAT! Everything is right on the surface, in plain view, no need to bend over to my stack of TC C300 compressors and dbx EQs below anymore and connect spaghetti of cables. My outboard rack shrunk from 3ft to about 5U. 100ft 24-4 snake was a bit pain in the ass, but useable.

But still it's not a digital mixer as such, functionally. Great for many uses where you don't need all this stuff, preamps are great, and even kids can use it. And yes, I can live without motorized faders (just don't know how Yamaha did it for less price in 01V96, though with less faders). Like my weekend gig today, I would've done it with SL24.4.2 just fine, instead of X32 (though would've need longer than 100ft snake). Would've kept it, but X32 came out, and I needed funds.

As reference, there's plenty of "virtual analog" synths out there, JP-8000, Novation UltraNova, KORG R3, to name a few. Those are 100% digital, but functionally they have the same analog controls as big old truly analog synths of the past. Manufacturers point them as being "analog" in use as their prime advantage. Synth makers went through this "digital is better" thing over twenty years ago, most of synths today are all digital but they market them as "analog-like" from user standpoint, especially Roland. SL desks are the same, power of digital processing packed in a sleek box with friendly analog-style layout and controls.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: presonus still alive?

How "good" are the moving faders on the Yamaha 01V, released sixteen years ago, regarded as, then? I got mine used in 2004, and when a fader died a couple of years later, IIRC it cost me about $100. The console is still going strong, otherwise, although I haven't used it much since I got an X32. Honestly, the ones on my X32 don't feel THAT much better.

I'm not sure where the $259 per fader price came from. Any references? Guys at Slims (club) in San Francisco had to replace the entire Centralogic 8-fader assembly in M7, cost them like $250, if I'm not mistaking, that's all. (they've sold that M7 since for around $9K, M7CL-48, not ES, upgraded to Profile)

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: presonus still alive?

Per

I'm not sure where the $259 per fader price came from. Any references? Guys at Slims (club) in San Francisco had to replace the entire Centralogic 8-fader assembly in M7, cost them like $250, if I'm not mistaking, that's all. (they've sold that M7 since for around $9K, M7CL-48, not ES, upgraded to Profile)

That came from me and that was not $259 per fader. That was a total manufacturers cost for putting a cheap $7 fader in a SL 24 for conversation purposes. I happen to know the GLD80 faders a cheaper to replace than the Yamahas. You do not get to pay what the manufacturers pay for parts. They have more than those cheap parts in those mixers. You must also pay for their burden of manufacturing. So adding these faders is exponentially more expensive than the cost of the parts alone, especially for the manufacturer.

if you want the StudioLive to cost what a ls9 costs, you can have faders that move. But, the ls9 price range is not what sells most in the music store. At the time it was conceived, it had little competition and was a transition product from analog. It had a niche. It still does in my opinion. The majority of my customers in churches never change presets from the ones I set up when I installed them. They don't even record with it. They don't know moving faders exist. So for those 50 plus churches....it works and was a great option.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: presonus still alive?

The majority of my customers in churches never change presets from the ones I set up when I installed them. They don't even record with it. They don't know moving faders exist. So for those 50 plus churches....it works and was a great option.

That's interesting as while the StudioLive mixers certainly have many good applications, many of the churches and schools that I have worked with that are considering a digital console at least partially because they want simple scene recall. They want to be able to push a single button, or perhaps be able to choose between several pre-defined basic setups, before a service or event and have the entire console at a known starting point. Recalling a setup and then having to adjust faders, verify preamp settings, etc. may not be seen as being that much different than what they already do with an analog console and thus is often of limited interest.

Also related, but most of those I talk with interested in consoles with wireless mixing capability expect changes made from the wireless remote to be reflected on the console. While the StudioLive not doing that should not be a surprise since it does not have motorized faders, I think many people don't think about that aspect and are surprised when they find that changes they made wirelessly then have to be manually "located" in order to be reflected on the console itself.

Just shows how needs and goals can vary and why it is so great to have multiple options for different applications.

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Re: presonus still alive?

Dear Brent,

While your comments are entertaining, they are technically incorrect.
The X32 motor fader is specified for 300,000 life cycles in line with some of the best faders available, while the MIDAS Motor Fader is specified for 1 million life cycles and defines the top of the line. Both are using the same Japanese motor brand Mabuchi found in Penny & Giles, Alps etc. The force of the fader is deliberately limited to avoid mechanical damage of the gear and belt in case it is deliberately stopped by hand or by obstacles.

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: presonus still alive?

Dear Brent,

While your comments are entertaining, they are technically incorrect.
The X32 motor fader is specified for 300,000 life cycles in line with some of the best faders available, while the MIDAS Motor Fader is specified for 1 million life cycles and defines the top of the line. Both are using the same Japanese motor brand Mabuchi found in Penny & Giles, Alps etc. The force of the fader is deliberately limited to avoid mechanical damage of the gear and belt in case it is deliberately stopped by hand or by obstacles.

What was incorrect? I don't think I said anything derogatory or incorrect. I did not address anything that you are talking about. The microphone situation DID happen and the faders WERE damaged. You said the fader motors are supposed to limit themselves. Ok. Evidently the mics were too much for the faders. There is nothing anti-Behringer there.

At the X32 roll out, Starin and the Behringer rep said Behringer made those faders in trays (in groups of eight), so they could be replaced in the field. They said Behringer made those faders, not that the faders were the same brand as Midas, etc. I don't think that subject came up. I don't think at that time anyone in the room expected them to be the same at all. Since I have never cracked open an X32 or a Pro series, I took what they said as gospel. I have never stated who made the faders or what their duty cycle is. Are you stating that the X32 fader is the same fader as a XL8 or Pro, just with a less robust motor? If so, I would say they sure don't feel or act the same.

Again, it's no slam. Everyone has motorized fader issues on some level, operator or manufacturer related. Some of our customers have had their X32s returned because of fader chatter/noise, complete failure, etc. But I have also had iLive and RSS mixers do the same thing. (Shipping an iLive in a road case was much more painful than an X32). When I worked in the studio, we had P&G/Flying Fader issues as well. It sure didn't mean they were junk.

Dude, I am so sorry. I keep calling you Joel for some reason. My bad.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: presonus still alive?

I moved this thread to the basement because the OP has been living under a rock.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: presonus still alive?

..... Starin and the Behringer rep said Behringer made those faders in trays (in groups of eight), so they could be replaced in the field. They said Behringer made those faders, not that the faders were the same brand as Midas, etc. I don't think that subject came up. I don't think at that time anyone in the room expected them to be the same at all. Since I have never cracked open an X32 or a Pro series, I took what they said as gospel. I have never stated who made the faders or what their duty cycle is. Are you stating that the X32 fader is the same fader as a XL8 or Pro, just with a less robust motor? If so, I would say they sure don't feel or act the same.

Again, it's no slam. Everyone has motorized fader issues on some level, operator or manufacturer related. Some of our customers have had their X32s returned because of fader chatter/noise, complete failure, etc. But I have also had iLive and RSS mixers do the same thing. (Shipping an iLive in a road case was much more painful than an X32). When I worked in the studio, we had P&G/Flying Fader issues as well. It sure didn't mean they were junk.

Just for reference, MIDAS Pro 2/2c faders are individually replaceable, I saw it on MIDAS training last December. It was the point of training, all it takes is a few allen wrenches to remove the top panel (not the whole top, only the section with faders), then remove two screws holding the fader and unplug one socket from the circuit board. Pretty much field-replaceable part. Don't have a pics to prove it, but that's how it is.

There's video on YouTube showing the whole process of opening X32 to fix color channel strip display LED. You may PM to that guy and ask if faders are separate or grouped in banks of 8. Inside the Behringer X32 digital mixing desk teardown and repair v2 software - YouTube

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: presonus still alive?

Just for reference, MIDAS Pro 2/2c faders are individually replaceable, I saw it on MIDAS training last December. It was the point of training, all it takes is a few allen wrenches to remove the top panel (not the whole top, only the section with faders), then remove two screws holding the fader and unplug one socket from the circuit board. Pretty much field-replaceable part. Don't have a pics to prove it, but that's how it is.

There's video on YouTube showing the whole process of opening X32 to fix color channel strip display LED. You may PM to that guy and ask if faders are separate or grouped in banks of 8. Inside the Behringer X32 digital mixing desk teardown and repair v2 software - YouTube

Arik, Nobody is talking about the faders in the Pro series. Of course they are not on trays.

I know the X32 faders are individually mounted to a tray. The original roll out guys were partially incorrect. You can see this tray in the video. That has not been disputed. Joe clarified the motors in those faders are the same brand as the motors in the Pro series. The faders and motors are not the exact same thing. Every brand has varying degrees of quality. Alps, Panasonic, P&G all offer high end products and products made for a price point with less duty rating.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: presonus still alive?

Arik, Nobody is talking about the faders in the Pro series. Of course they are not on trays.

I know the X32 faders are individually mounted to a tray. The original roll out guys were partially incorrect. You can see this tray in the video. That has not been disputed. Joe clarified the motors in those faders are the same brand as the motors in the Pro series. The faders and motors are not the exact same thing. Every brand has varying degrees of quality. Alps, Panasonic, P&G all offer high end products and products made for a price point with less duty rating.

To kind of clean up Brent's point a bit, he's really going for the idea that the product as an entirety is rated for less abuse and breaks easier. Not the value of the individual components, but rather he is referring to the sum of the whole.