Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

[RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Here is my take on it. Charge what it really costs to do the event. For me to do a small street festival I would easily be a couple grand per day. So give them a professional price and then when the topic of mr. Golden ears comes up, you'll go to the bank not feeling so bad that you had to deal with the b.s.

If he comes up to you during the event, simply step back and say you mix. Of course make him give you a certificate of insurance before he touches any of your gear. You can also call him out with your talkback mic between songs. Let the band and the audience know that mr. Golden ears wants it quieter and make sure everyone knows who he is.

 

[frank kayser]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Oops... pulled the trigger already...

Both very good points, Dick. The area is clearly defined so your rule of thumb is very doable. It also fits in with another complainant across the street and up the hill. Last time I monitored outside his abode, (outside the defined area) there was no measurable difference (with my RS meter on fast) from ambient, though the music was audible and vocals mostly decipherable.

The good news is the last event I did, the across-the-street complainant complained more about the gospel service with a boom box more than what I produced the day before. The drum circle at 9:30 Saturday ought to start his day off just dandy. but I digress...

Tough not to play his game - I did "need to" give him ownership of his suggestions - sound safety, crowd control, seating, and education. Probably most childish, but I wanted to see him basically tell the mayor that he could not participate, or put his monkey on his back.

Probably a big mistake, and will bite me in the ass.

 

[frank kayser]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Frank,

I'd probably include something to the effect of putting Bill in the liability chain should someone come back and sue for damaged hearing-if he's so gung ho on becoming the sound police, then he's on the hook if someone claims hearing damage. Perhaps that'll dampen his superhero urges.

And Dick, check the definitions of each form of that word, it's really quite possible they are interchangeable.

Best regards,

John

I like the idea of the liability chain...

As for JRs edit - yes they are fully interchangeable - I believe that his point with the revised phrasing was to be able to emphasize "NOT" capable.

 

[frank kayser]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Here is my take on it. Charge what it really costs to do the event. For me to do a small street festival I would easily be a couple grand per day. So give them a professional price and then when the topic of mr. Golden ears comes up, you'll go to the bank not feeling so bad that you had to deal with the b.s.

I may as well say "you can't afford me" and tell them to pound salt. And while an increasingly large part of me wants to go in that direction, we (as a community) have a lot of fun and a community richness and flavor that only works because of the volunteer spirit. (Everything here is a co-operative...) Simply, there are no deep (or even shallow) pockets to pay for anything - maybe some small grants from who-knows-where to cober musician's gas money and a quarter for me to call home. Much more socialist than I am, really (they must be slipping me the Kool Aid while I'm not looking). Over the years, the decent sound has attracted better music and more folks. In a normal situation, that would translate to $$ -

If he comes up to you during the event, simply step back and say you mix. Of course make him give you a certificate of insurance before he touches any of your gear. You can also call him out with your talkback mic between songs. Let the band and the audience know that mr. Golden ears wants it quieter and make sure everyone knows who he is.

That thought has crossed my mind. Didn't think about handling insurance... How I would love for the community to just rise up and ride him out on a rail. The LBGT community here just about did.

As some have said, and for which I do not disagree, his overall goal is reasonable. Unfortunately, no one likes a back-seat driver.

 

[frank kayser]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

I don't know the laws in USA or Canada.. but it could very well be a workplace (it would be deemed as one in Oz). Is anyone being paid to work there - it's a work place. Hence the comments about the people manning booths nearby being forced into the exposure.

There was an article a few years ago about a particular symphonic piece being unable to be played at concert halls in Europe because the noise exposure to the musicians would put them over the limit.

This isn't to say i'm on his side - everything has a time and place and his place.. is nowhere near the fun and enjoyment of the public at large !

Andrew

Andrew - the very last thing I'm worried about is "being on his side" - Everything does have a time and place.

He's angling to get the City Council worrying about civil liability - and using NIOSH and OSHA as a proxy, or line in the sand. He goal is not to get the festivals shut down - just to a level he deems to be non damaging. But what he's really asking for is a change to the laws... of physics. Equal volume from the speaker cone to the edge of the property where an invisible fence will hold it all in.

Interesting note on the symphonic piece. I do know of more than a few symphonic musicians that are quite deaf now due to their work. Interesting that one piece would be singled out. EU laws are indeed strange to us yanks.

 

[Lisa Lane-Collins]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Good response I think, good luck with it all.

My 2 cents, speaking as a tech who normally mixes rooms so small the stage sound alone hurts my ears, I'm a big advocate of cheap foam earplugs and personal responsibility. (That's not to say I don't still do uncommonly quiet mixes, but there is only so much volume reduction one can achieve in a small room with a drummer - practical limitations, just like punters walking up to your speakers, that's Their choice!).

It's also been my experience people expect/want a certain degree of db from their musical events.

If I played in a orchestra anywhere near the violins or trumpets...or the timpani, I'd wear earplugs, the orchestral beast can Bellow! :-D

 

[frank kayser]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Well I have his answer...
Just as I predicted, he declined.

His reasons are priceless...

Hi Frank,
-Thank your for your information, corrections and suggestions.
-I have already done many thousands of hours of volunteer work in many areas of activism, and, as usual I am invited once again to do still more volunteer work.
-It is my hope that by notifying the persons who are "running things" that they will weigh my information and suggestions and proceed in a manner more accommodating of children and adults in terms of enjoyability and safety.
-I do not have the time and energy beyond these writings to volunteer at the festival.

<snip> (His activism resume here) <snip>

-My long list is suggestion that the persons in charge do those things. I have been assigned no authority to do those things, and, lacking such authority, will tend to invite ridicule. For example, at the Labor Day Festival last year I encountered a lady sitting on the bleachers less than 5 feet from one of the speakers where the sound level was about 105 decibels where she was sitting. I suggested she move for her own safety, and she rejected that suggestion.

<snip> (baiting-what would I do scenario here) <snip>

-Right now I am doing my homework, and it is my hope that in part because of that I will be able to attend and enjoy the Green Man Festival this year. It does become wearing to feel that I am at work so much of the time. (emphasis mine)
-I believe that the almost the only thing that needs to be done is to keep the sound at a safe level at all audience locations, averaging 87 decibels or less for a 4-hour interval or averaging 85 decibels or less for an 8 hour level. Aside from that, little else will need to be done aside from shooing children away from proximity to speakers.
Thanks for your work and your feedback, and I understand that your own investment is substantial
Best, Bill"

Activism. Tell someone else what they should be doing, and complain when it is not done. No skin in the game = no responsibility. Punter.

At least he is on record that he does not have time or energy to help, but will be there anyway.

And on that note, I bid you adieu.

Thanks everyone.
frank

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"

 

[Jordan Lahr]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Sounds to me like he is just tooting his own horn, if anyone in the mayors office takes him seriously they need to rethink where they belong in life as a career. People choose to go to these festival concerts. They choose to have the loud volume. I generally see 87 DB, sitting in my truck with no speakers turned on and just the window down. I really think OSHA needs to clarify their statements about sound damage as over an 8 hour time period the damage of 87 Db is very temporary and if you spend 1-4 hours at 60 db or below that damage is null. OSHA isn't talking that once in a while noise they are talking 8 hours a day 5 days a week 40 hours a week for 32 weeks. Not once every month or so.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

With that response, it would be really hard to let the sound level drop BELOW 87 decibels while he's there....

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

When anyone hands me the "it's too loud" stuff, I just tell them to hire quieter bands. This after pulling the master faders down and showing them that it's the band, not the PA.

 

[frank kayser]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

When anyone hands me the "it's too loud" stuff, I just tell them to hire quieter bands. This after pulling the master faders down and showing them that it's the band, not the PA.

Took me a year and countless emails to convince this individual of that.

With that response, it would be really hard to let the sound level drop BELOW 87 decibels while he's there....

Oh God, yes! That was my initial thought. As much as I'd like, I've done the proper thing in the past without this bullying, I see no reason to compromise myself now. Sure would be fun to go out with a bang, so to speak. Might not hit 140db, but it might be worth a driver or two to see... Naw...

Sounds to me like he is just tooting his own horn, if anyone in the mayors office takes him seriously they need to rethink where they belong in life as a career. People choose to go to these festival concerts. They choose to have the loud volume. I generally see 87 DB, sitting in my truck with no speakers turned on and just the window down. I really think OSHA needs to clarify their statements about sound damage as over an 8 hour time period the damage of 87 Db is very temporary and if you spend 1-4 hours at 60 db or below that damage is null. OSHA isn't talking that once in a while noise they are talking 8 hours a day 5 days a week 40 hours a week for 32 weeks. Not once every month or so.

The City Council and the City Manager know him all too well. That being said, they do have to humor the voters to a point. His last presentation to the council was referred to a committee headed by the City Manager. (after rolling his eyes).
At festivals, people vote with their feet - they go where they want to be. I do cringe when a parent is dancing with their baby close to the speakers. He does make some good points. The problem with activists like Bill is that their ideas are paramount, and we need to accommodate their ideas - whether we agree or not, because they're more educated, but shame on us should we ask for them to actually put in a little time and sweat to affect their ideas. Benevolent dictator? It's great to be in a town that is makes DC look like a bastion of conservatism.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Benevolent dictator? It's great to be in a town that is makes DC look like a bastion of conservatism.

I thought a pillar of liberal thought was relativism. Who is he to say what is too loud for someone else?

I wonder what he would think at Helge's event.

Edit: I wonder if we can start the corollarry rumor to the "underpowering speakers causes damage" - shows that are too quiet actually cause more hearing damage than louder ones?

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

I think he'd probably shit in his pants if I put him on the dj riser, 2m in front of 12 S28, in the middle of the power alley. I was up there and the whole riser shakes with every bass hit, it's like standing on top of a pheumatic drill.

 

[brian maddox]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

This whole thread has been fun for me to follow. I've played at the New Deal Cafe a few times as well as some outdoor stuff so I'm familiar with the area. Having seen the types of people that hang out around there, I can all but picture Bill in my mind...

Good Times.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

I thought a pillar of liberal thought was relativism. Who is he to say what is too loud for someone else?

It is a slippery slope to make broad sweeping generalizations about what other people think, when we barely know what we think, but in the spirit of quasi-cleverness, this is consistent with the Bloomberg nanny state where they think they know what is best for the unwashed public.

I wonder what he would think at Helge's event.

Edit: I wonder if we can start the corollarry rumor to the "underpowering speakers causes damage" - shows that are too quiet actually cause more hearing damage than louder ones?

Surely it does if it gets too quiet and the muscles around the stirrup relax and allow sudden loud transients through. Being always loud, all the time is obviously safer...

JR

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Hi Sound Guys,
It was unforgivable of me not cc'ing you on this.
So much for my memory.
I hope it will be helpful.
Best, Bill xxxxxxxx

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bill xxxxx
Date: Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:42 PM
Subject: 2013 Green Man Festival, Sound Concerns
To: [email protected]
Cc: Celia [email protected]>, Lore [email protected]>, Michael [email protected]>, Judith [email protected]>, Michael [email protected]>


Hi to the Committee,

Here is a reminder just in case not all of this information and opinion has reached you. This is about creating a "sound-safer" GM Festival than we had last year.

While I am not a audiologist, or a sound man, or a lawyer or a PhD level physicist, I have read perhaps 100 times more than the average person has on the subject of hearing damage resulting from exposure to higher sound levels for excessive durations.

Based upon that I urge the following in the setup of the sound for the bands.

1. That the band and the band and speakers be set back as far as possible from the audience as was done at last year's Crazy Quilt Festival.

2. That no speaker be placed where a person could accidentally walk less than at a distance of 5 feet in front of it. This is still not a safe distance in the case of sound mishaps or high level sounds, but is a safer distance.

3. That no booth be placed within 20 feet of the bandstand, as persons working in the booths will be stuck all day, and will experience the longest exposures possibly to sound levels in excess of 85 decibels. Duration of exposure is just as significant as intensity of exposure.

4. That band leaders be instructed that there will be young children present and that their hearing is more vulnerable to damage than is the hearing of the adults present. The band should be playing at a level of about 20 decibels lower when there are younger children present. Ref's provided upon request.

5. That no seating be provided in front of the band, as placement of the seating near the band and their speakers brings an expectation of safety, which I believe could get the City into legal trouble if there is some sort of mishap whereby there is an accidental extremely loud (140 decibels or more) speaker pop, squeal, roar, static, crack etc, such as sometimes causes a lifetime of tinnitus (ringing in the ears) and/or some degree of permanent hearing loss. A list of possible mishaps that can cause extreme sound from speakers provided on request.

6. That, in the event that music is being played at a level in excess of 85 decibels, signs be installed instructing parents to keep children farther away from the band and its speakers.

7. That a sound level meter will be in use by the sound man.

8. That there will be established before the event that the sound man is in control of the overall sound level as well as of the sound level from any individual voice or any instrument, even if he must walk up to the individual on the bandstand and instruct a turn-down of a band member's personal amplifier which, perhaps, might not be "running through" the main speakers and is not controllable from the sound board. I believe that it is essential that the sound man be in complete control of the sound, and the performers should not have to allow such concerns to distract them from their performing.

9. That, if the sound is extremely loud, and if cheap ear plugs are being offered, the users of the earplugs will be instructed that there are two requirements for safe use of earplugs: 1) a high-quality pair ($30/pair and up) should be used, and 2) that there be skillful installation of the earplugs. Otherwise there arises a false sense of security which can lead to hearing damage.

I'm sorry about being so worrisome here, but the administrative and set-up discomfort we see here is small to the discomfort experienced by (sometimes suicidal) persons who have permanent tinnitus and/or smaller or larger increments of permanent hearing loss.

Many thanks for whatever you can do to insure a more sound-enjoyable Green Man Festival 2013.

Bill xxxxxxx

"Shoot him, cut out his tongue, and then shoot his tongue."
^ Lighting techs told me to do this one after a similar person invaded the sound booth once. If I remember correctly, they told the spots to accidentally shine their beams in his face when he walked out, since it was his ears he was worried about, and his eyes weren't worth protecting anyways.

 

[frank kayser]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

I think he'd probably shit in his pants if I put him on the dj riser, 2m in front of 12 S28, in the middle of the power alley. I was up there and the whole riser shakes with every bass hit, it's like standing on top of a pheumatic drill.

He'd just call the cops and try to make his point that these folks are trying to commit audio suicide, and by gosh, suicide is against the law!

This whole thread has been fun for me to follow. I've played at the New Deal Cafe a few times as well as some outdoor stuff so I'm familiar with the area. Having seen the types of people that hang out around there, I can all but picture Bill in my mind...

Good Times.

The group kept it light - for which I am thankful. We did have a bit of fun at his expense. Yeah, our little town attracts some colorful folks (is it still ok to say that?). Yeah, I bet you do have a mind's eye full! Next time you're in town or at the cafe let me know. Beer's on me.

It is a slippery slope to make broad sweeping generalizations about what other people think, when we barely know what we think, but in the spirit of quasi-cleverness, this is consistent with the Bloomberg nanny state where they think they know what is best for the unwashed public.

Edit: I wonder if we can start the corollarry rumor to the "underpowering speakers causes damage" - shows that are too quiet actually cause more hearing damage than louder ones?

Surely it does if it gets too quiet and the muscles around the stirrup relax and allow sudden loud transients through. Being always loud, all the time is obviously safer...

JR

A rumor like that would spread like wildfire.

"Shoot him, cut out his tongue, and then shoot his tongue."
^ Lighting techs told me to do this one after a similar person invaded the sound booth once. If I remember correctly, they told the spots to accidentally shine their beams in his face when he walked out, since it was his ears he was worried about, and his eyes weren't worth protecting anyways.

Now, now. Shooting is not the answer - after all, one already has a knife in hand. Why dirty two tools when one will do?
Lampies are our friends. Hope there was a step...

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Now, now. Shooting is not the answer - after all, one already has a knife in hand. Why dirty two tools when one will do?
Lampies are our friends. Hope there was a step...

Because this:
Pirates of the caribbean Shoot hIM!! - YouTube

And that depends on what you mean by a... "step"...

By the way... come to our little corner of Hell over in Fairfax sometime. You should see the insanity.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735

OSHA guidelines allow for a constant 90db sound for an 8 hour day. They actually allow 115db for 15 minutes or less per day.

No. You can start with the simple aspect that OSHA addresses A-weighted, slow response levels, so not 90dB and 115dB but 90dB(SPL, A-weighted, slow response) and 115dB(SPL, A-weighted, slow response). More important, OSHA only addresses 8 hour periods and the referenced chart is indicating the associated levels and periods to be used in calculating the total 8 hour dose when you have varying levels over that 8 hour period (and which is why a dosimeter is really the only appropriate tool for such applications). In other words, you have to comply with all the criteria for longer periods including the total 8 hour dose, which with 115dBA for 15 minutes essentially means you used up all the allowable exposure in 15 minutes and must have no significant exposure for the rest of the 8 hour measurement period. Also note that chart is for the 90dBA exposure action levels and not for the 85dBA exposure associated with having to initiate a hearing conservation program. And finally, nothing in OSHA restricts the source levels, it is all about the exposure levels and active options to reduce exposure such as required use of personal hearing protection along with administrative options such as limiting the time of exposure are common approaches for compliance - and also much more practical in the work place environment for which it is intended to be applied.

I think the gentlemen involved is common in that he misses the big picture in what OSHA and NIOSH are addressing and trying to do, which is addressing long term effects of repeated exposure in the work place. Not only are the attendees not your or the city's employees but you do not have the control over their exposure that an employer has over their employees. You can't make attendees wear hearing protection or limit their exposure time and that is really what OSHA and NIOSH address, not limiting the source levels.

I also don't know how he can expect the "band leaders" to have the bands play 20dB lower in response to children "being present", whatever that means. Maybe Bill can take responsibility for keeping all children a sufficient distance away or making sure they all use hearing protection.

Etymotic Research ETY ER20 plugs are like $9 to $12, probably less in bulk and custom plugs much more, I have no idea where he came up with a $30 number unless maybe he is trying to sell something.

I think Bill may be well intentioned but seems likely to have obtained much of his information from rather biased sources as perhaps shown with references like the "...(sometimes suicidal) persons.."

Good luck!

 

[John Halliburton]

Re: Pseudo-intellectual bully with a sound level meter

Well I have his answer...
Just as I predicted, he declined.

His reasons are priceless...


<snip> (His activism resume here) <snip>


<snip> (baiting-what would I do scenario here) <snip>



Activism. Tell someone else what they should be doing, and complain when it is not done. No skin in the game = no responsibility. Punter.

At least he is on record that he does not have time or energy to help, but will be there anyway.

And on that note, I bid you adieu.

Thanks everyone.
frank

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"

Please inform the promotors/organizers of your show that by his own admission he has no credentials or professional standing to make such recommendations, in spite of apparantly living at a Holiday Inn Express, and that the liability issue of an organization or company even accepting his recommendations for review could be a legal cesspool waiting to happen.

The idiot has no place in this situation. He's an activism narcissist.

John