Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

S

Steve Maksim

Freshman
Jul 28, 2012
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6
I'm in a position to recommend some changes, and would like to ask for comments/suggestions on what I'm contemplating. I'm wondering about recapitalizing the M7CL-48.

Status quo:

  • Mix position

  • M7CL-48, but we're not using the whole thing
  • It's in the back of the room (of course!), so it's hard for the board operator to hear

  • Mains

  • Powered Yamaha-something mains (see pics)
  • Meyer Sound Galileo 408 for speaker management
  • Nobody wants to sit in the front third of the house, because it's terribly harsh
  • This is not my area of expertise, but I suspect that the speakers may not be appropriate or that at least that their positioning is incorrect; the sound in the room is very uneven, and it's loud someplaces while (relatively) quiet elsewhere.

  • Monitors

  • A pair of powered floor wedges are occasionally used
  • The rest of the musicians use Aviom headphone mixers
  • Aviom A-16D Pro for distribution, fed from card in M7CL-48.

My proposal:

  • Mix position

  • Sell the M7CL-48 for somewhere around $6k-7k.
  • Buy an X32 (or .....?)
  • Getting something that multitracks will let people learn and practice at something besides Sunday service
  • Buy an iPad and/or laptop so that the board operator can make adjustments from elsewhere in the room
  • Buy a stereo line mixer to handle playback from CD player, tape deck, etc., (thanks, Aaron.)
  • Run CAT5

  • Mains

  • Bring in a pro to do modeling and make a recommendation.

  • Monitoring:

  • Sell the Aviom rack-mounted input unit
  • Buy Powerplay P-16's, and get the rack input unit if console is other than X32
  • Invest in better headphones for the band

Here are some pics of the space, setup, and the speakers:

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IMG_0060_small.jpgIMG_0061_small.jpg
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

I'll trade you for the m7 with an x32 and a couple s16 snake heads, and I'll take that "crappy" Yamaha powered pa off you as well... FYI, it's a meyer rig.. Nothing wrong with the gear you have, it's probably the item standing in front of the m7 that's the issue, or poor speaker placement,implementation.

Is there any reason why the iPad app hasn't been implemented to get the operator from behind the desk?

Where are you located?
 
Last edited:
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

Replies in red:
I'm in a position to recommend some changes, and would like to ask for comments/suggestions on what I'm contemplating. I'm wondering about recapitalizing the M7CL-48.
Click to expand...
Status quo:


  • Mix position


  • M7CL-48, but we're not using the whole thing
  • It's in the back of the room (of course!), so it's hard for the board operator to hear Not unusual to position the consoles in the back of the room. If the speakers are tuned properly and cover the whole room, then it's a non issue.


  • Mains


  • Powered Yamaha-something mains (see pics)
  • Meyer Sound Galileo 408 for speaker management
  • Nobody wants to sit in the front third of the house, because it's terribly harsh Sounds like a tuning issue. Or probably the wrong speakers for the room (or both).
  • This is not my area of expertise, but I suspect that the speakers may not be appropriate or that at least that their positioning is incorrect; the sound in the room is very uneven, and it's loud someplaces while (relatively) quiet elsewhere.


  • Monitors


  • A pair of powered floor wedges are occasionally used
  • The rest of the musicians use Aviom headphone mixers
  • Aviom A-16D Pro for distribution, fed from card in M7CL-48.

My proposal:


  • Mix position


  • Sell the M7CL-48 for somewhere around $6k-7k. Why Sell the M7 if it does what you need it to do?
  • Buy an X32 (or .....?) QL5?
  • Getting something that multitracks will let people learn and practice at something besides Sunday service You can multitrack with the M7 with a couple of Dante cards (depending on how many inputs you need)
  • Buy an iPad and/or laptop so that the board operator can make adjustments from elsewhere in the room This can also be done with the M7 and the StageMix app from Yamaha and an iPad or a laptop and the Yamaha Studio Manager.
  • Buy a stereo line mixer to handle playback from CD player, tape deck, etc., (thanks, Aaron.) Why do you think you need a stereo line level mixer? The M7 has four stereo line level inputs already, should be enough for most uses. Or buy a laptop and run something like QLab or SFX for playback.
  • Run CAT5


  • Mains


  • Bring in a pro to do modeling and make a recommendation. Where are you located?


  • Monitoring:


  • Sell the Aviom rack-mounted input unit
  • Buy Powerplay P-16's, and get the rack input unit if console is other than X32
  • Invest in better headphones for the band Maybe invest in in-ear-monitors for the musicians?

Also, what's up with those subs? Are they supposed to be a flown endfire subwoofer array of some kind? Is the processing on these set up correctly?With the amount of space you have, I'd rather have subs on the ground. But maybe this was an aesthetics issue?

Here are some pics of the space, setup, and the speakers:
Click to expand...
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

on a quick look at the pix, they look like meyersound upjs/upjuniors to me -> galileo 408 as well. same with subs: ums's
i would keep all the equipment.
based on this, get some from meyersound or ms-trained professional to have alook on this - first! if this doesn't solve the problems, you can change equipment :roll:
also, justice's recommendations are the way to go...
hth
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

There are certainly "challenges" with the folks who are currently mixing. There's no question about that.

And I confess that I know very little about the M7. I've worked a lot of analog boards, and most of my experience that I've had with digital has been the 01V96 (a long time ago) and the X32 (a couple years ago).

This is in Centreville, VA, which is DC metro.
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. My response in blue.

Justice C. Bigler said:
Status quo:

  • Mix position

  • M7CL-48, but we're not using the whole thing
  • It's in the back of the room (of course!), so it's hard for the board operator to hear Not unusual to position the consoles in the back of the room. If the speakers are tuned properly and cover the whole room, then it's a non issue. I know that it's common, and that it doesn't have to be an issue, but it's aggravating the current situation.

  • Mains

  • Powered Yamaha-something mains (see pics)
  • Meyer Sound Galileo 408 for speaker management
  • Nobody wants to sit in the front third of the house, because it's terribly harsh Sounds like a tuning issue. Or probably the wrong speakers for the room (or both). Exactly.
  • This is not my area of expertise, but I suspect that the speakers may not be appropriate or that at least that their positioning is incorrect; the sound in the room is very uneven, and it's loud someplaces while (relatively) quiet elsewhere.

  • Monitors

  • A pair of powered floor wedges are occasionally used
  • The rest of the musicians use Aviom headphone mixers
  • Aviom A-16D Pro for distribution, fed from card in M7CL-48.

My proposal:

  • Mix position

  • Sell the M7CL-48 for somewhere around $6k-7k. Why Sell the M7 if it does what you need it to do?
    1. Two reasons that I brought this up:
      1. ​Will the M7 do what we want? You're telling me that it can and that there are other impediments in the way. I appreciate the answer.
      2. To squeeze money out of itI have no appreciation for how much fixing the house will cost, and I don't know how much budget is available to make them. This is like downsizing a house to pay new bills.
  • Buy an X32 (or .....?) QL5? I doubt that there's $$'s for that, I appreciate the recommendation.
  • Getting something that multitracks will let people learn and practice at something besides Sunday service You can multitrack with the M7 with a couple of Dante cards (depending on how many inputs you need) Thanks! I'll look those up.
  • Buy an iPad and/or laptop so that the board operator can make adjustments from elsewhere in the room This can also be done with the M7 and the StageMix app from Yamaha and an iPad or a laptop and the Yamaha Studio Manager. Thanks! I'll look those up, too!
  • Buy a stereo line mixer to handle playback from CD player, tape deck, etc., (thanks, Aaron.)Why do you think you need a stereo line level mixer? The M7 has four stereo line level inputs already, should be enough for most uses. Or buy a laptop and run something like QLab or SFX for playback. This was to handle occasional overflow demand if a smaller, 32-ch., mixer was bought.
  • Run CAT5

  • Mains

  • Bring in a pro to do modeling and make a recommendation. Where are you located? Centreville, VA, which is metro DC.

  • Monitoring:

  • Sell the Aviom rack-mounted input unit
  • Buy Powerplay P-16's, and get the rack input unit if console is other than X32
  • Invest in better headphones for the band Maybe invest in in-ear-monitors for the musicians?That's what I meant.

Also, what's up with those subs? Are they supposed to be a flown endfire subwoofer array of some kind? Is the processing on these set up correctly?With the amount of space you have, I'd rather have subs on the ground. But maybe this was an aesthetics issue? I'm relatively new to the church and don't know the history. Nobody that I've talked to really seems to have an understanding of the system, either.

Here are some pics of the space, setup, and the speakers:
Click to expand...
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

Steve Maksim said:
I'm in a position to recommend some changes, and would like to ask for comments/suggestions on what I'm contemplating. I'm wondering about recapitalizing the M7CL-48.

Status quo:

  • Mix position

  • M7CL-48, but we're not using the whole thing
  • It's in the back of the room (of course!), so it's hard for the board operator to hear

  • Mains

  • Powered Yamaha-something mains (see pics)
  • Meyer Sound Galileo 408 for speaker management
  • Nobody wants to sit in the front third of the house, because it's terribly harsh
  • This is not my area of expertise, but I suspect that the speakers may not be appropriate or that at least that their positioning is incorrect; the sound in the room is very uneven, and it's loud someplaces while (relatively) quiet elsewhere.

  • Monitors

  • A pair of powered floor wedges are occasionally used
  • The rest of the musicians use Aviom headphone mixers
  • Aviom A-16D Pro for distribution, fed from card in M7CL-48.

My proposal:

  • Mix position

  • Sell the M7CL-48 for somewhere around $6k-7k.
  • Buy an X32 (or .....?)
  • Getting something that multitracks will let people learn and practice at something besides Sunday service
  • Buy an iPad and/or laptop so that the board operator can make adjustments from elsewhere in the room
  • Buy a stereo line mixer to handle playback from CD player, tape deck, etc., (thanks, Aaron.)
  • Run CAT5

  • Mains

  • Bring in a pro to do modeling and make a recommendation.

  • Monitoring:

  • Sell the Aviom rack-mounted input unit
  • Buy Powerplay P-16's, and get the rack input unit if console is other than X32
  • Invest in better headphones for the band

Here are some pics of the space, setup, and the speakers:

View attachment 11336
Click to expand...

Hi, Steve. So, I'm not familiar with these particular speakers but I did a bit of research from the ID given here. Can you reduce energy in 2.5 to 3.5kHz "harsh" range? Do you have any equipment to monitor the changes you're making (besides your ears)?

Disable any EQ that is being applied at the console and play a CD or something recorded with good dynamics. This should get you to the point where the installers tuned the system with the Galileo. If it still sucks, try defeating all EQ. Those speakers shouldn't be harsh out of the box. If it improves, walk down to the front and double check that what you're hearing all the way in the back is accurate. I'd bet it's not. The high frequency energy will decrease rapidly with distance because of the constant directivity horns they're using.

The Jr. are likely doing two things for you: One, they're probably too loud for the distance to the front pews. Second, they're almost certainly combing at both mid and HF. This leads to those dead spots.

If it were my system, I'd lower the mains about 18" to reduce early reflection off the ceiling and put those little guys as rear fill behind the projectors so you can get a more accurate feel for what the front sound like. If you hang them horizontally, ensure they are book-matched (compression drivers on the inside). I like rear fill to just pick up the sibilance and mids to help localization. Too loud, and they'll contribute to echo.
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

I would not add or change any equipment in that system until you have a good "qualified" person come in and go through it all.
Not to be harsh but I would say over time the day to day operators have hacked the system to death causing you to come to us for help. Hopefully the Meyer DSP was set up correctly and locked out, flattening/bypassing all of the board output EQ and maybe even the channel EQ may get you back to at least a good starting point.

I been out on a couple service calls where the church was convinced they needed a new system where after five minutes of DE-EQ'ing the system was all it took.
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

Mike Caldwell said:
I would not add or change any equipment in that system until you have a good "qualified" person come in and go through it all.
Not to be harsh but I would say over time the day to day operators have hacked the system to death causing you to come to us for help. Hopefully the Meyer DSP was set up correctly and locked out, flattening/bypassing all of the board output EQ and maybe even the channel EQ may get you back to at least a good starting point.

I been out on a couple service calls where the church was convinced they needed a new system where after five minutes of DE-EQ'ing the system was all it took.
Click to expand...

This sounds completely reasonable. Thanks for the advice.

(Btw, I'm not one of the operators in this situation, I'm the pianoist up front. I have no skin in the game, except trying to get things fixed.)
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

I think you need to find a qualified technician to come out and evaluate your system.

You have good speakers, a quality system processor and a perfectly serviceable console. If anything, you might need a couple more speakers as delays or side fills.

You talk about downsizing the console and then getting a second submixer to handle overflow when that console isn't enough. The M7 already has all of those channels. Also, you are already running your Aviom system from the M7, so no need to change that.

Spend $500 and have a tech come out for a day and go through the system, then make recommendations. I bet replacing a bunch of gear isn't one of them.
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

Don't let yourself or anyone else at the church fall into the trap of thinking a bunch of new equipment is going to fix your problems. You have all the goods in place to do what you you need, maybe you need a couple extra parts and pieces here and there to put the so called icing on the cake but the system you have now can get the job done and them some.
Again not being harsh but just stating a fact, your sound team will most likely be the weak link in the system, even more so if it's a rotating schedule of volunteers where the operator may only see the board one Sunday a month.

Good article here on operator training......http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,152510.0.html
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

I'm an hour from you. Instead of making a bunch more random purchases, let's get in the space and figure out what the current issue actually is, and go from there. You have plenty of good equipment, let's make it the best it can be and properly train you on all operation.




Evan
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

Evan Kirkendall said:
I'm an hour from you. Instead of making a bunch more random purchases, let's get in the space and figure out what the current issue actually is, and go from there. You have plenty of good equipment, let's make it the best it can be and properly train you on all operation.

Evan
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer. I'll PM you.
 
Re: Recapitalize M7CL-48 at church to redo system?--Please comment on plan

Evan Kirkendall said:
I'm an hour from you. Instead of making a bunch more random purchases, let's get in the space and figure out what the current issue actually is, and go from there. You have plenty of good equipment, let's make it the best it can be and properly train you on all operation.

Evan
Click to expand...

Hey Evan! I need similar help. I tried PM but its not working I think. Can you email me - [email protected]? Thanks!
 
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