Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

I like the big X32, but it was only my misconceptions about iPad mixing that stood in the way of the switch. Once I actually used it in anger and saw how easy it was to manipulate every aspect of your mix, I was hooked on iPad mixing. I also realized that this is the future for all mixing, maybe not now, but the inexorable creep of technology does not stop, one day all mixers we be like this.
I always find the discussion of the direction some technology takes interesting in whether that direction is dictated by technology better serving the needs of users or if its more new technology for the sake of new technology (or for reducing cost). That gets even more interesting when you consider that situations and personal preferences can vary and that there may be no 'one size fits all' solution. In particular, being limited to only tablet based mixing may be perfectly acceptable or even preferred by some but may not be as viable or practical an option for others and I think it's great to have options that allow for more than one approach rather than having to adjust how you operate to a particular technology.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

I always find the discussion of the direction some technology takes interesting in whether that direction is dictated by technology better serving the needs of users or if its more new technology for the sake of new technology (or for reducing cost). That gets even more interesting when you consider that situations and personal preferences can vary and that there may be no 'one size fits all' solution. In particular, being limited to only tablet based mixing may be perfectly acceptable or even preferred by some but may not be as viable or practical an option for others and I think it's great to have options that allow for more than one approach rather than having to adjust how you operate to a particular technology.

Yeah, if you're mixing a wedding band where there are no surprises I suppose a tablet-based console is acceptable. If you're mixing the same band(s) all the time and know what is coming, tablets are probably fine.

I too question if the whole thing was driven by manufacturing's desire for cost savings vs. angry hoards at the gates demanding a tablet controller.

Either way, though, it's with us and won't be abandoned to make way for legacy interfaces. Eventually the physical surface (including tablets) will be a memory.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

Eventually the physical surface (including tablets) will be a memory.
With the technology that is represented by Google Glass, I can see a totally configurable user interface that you can set up and operate any way you like.

I'm sure that tablets will be pushing out the classic physical interface as we move forward, there is no question about that. But where does it go from there? I really think totally virtualized user interfaces are on their way. The bonus with something like this is you can configure your user interface however you want. So something like a universal control interface that can manipulate the console of your choice, AND be configured the way YOU want rather than the way someone else thinks it should be, is not that far away.

To expand the tablet discussion, the MediaMatrix NION platform, with the release of NWare 1.7.0, had introduced totally user configurable web based control for the audio system, it is called Kiosk2Go. You still set it up with a PC, but you can build user interfaces using whatever type of layout you want. This can be used with any web browser that supports HTML 5. So, you are now not limited to just your iPad/iPhone... you can use anything that will pull up a web page. Of course there are security features built in for requiring log in authentication and things like that. I bring this up because while some people consider this type of thing to be "way out there" it really isn't as far away as they think.

Sure, a NION does cost a bit more than an X32 Rack... but the technology is out there and it is just going to get cheaper.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please



Once I actually used it in anger and saw how easy it was to manipulate every aspect of your mix, I was hooked on iPad mixing. I also realized that this is the future for all mixing, maybe not now, but the inexorable creep of technology does not stop, one day all mixers we be like this.

Tablet mixing as an ancillary device expands the possiblities, as the only device, it limits the possibilities. All mixing tasks are not created equal. Try mixing 64 or so inputs of a live, unrehearsed concert on a 8 fader +/- touchscreen and let me know how that works out for you. Just sayin. Everything has a place.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

Tablet mixing as an ancillary device expands the possiblities, as the only device, it limits the possibilities. All mixing tasks are not created equal. Try mixing 64 or so inputs of a live, unrehearsed concert on a 8 fader +/- touchscreen and let me know how that works out for you. Just sayin. Everything has a place.

I don't believe that is a permanent limit on touchscreen technology (the number of faders available at any one time). Time moves forward and we learn from our mistakes and new technology is released at the end of the cycle. One day I hope to see improved touchscreen mixing options available, but for now, the iPad does exactly what I need it to do. Who knows, some creative individual could invent a device that might change the whole concept of mixing as we know it today. I always try to gather as much information as I can and bring the right tools to the job. I wouldn't think of bringing a knife to a gun fight!
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

I always find the discussion of the direction some technology takes interesting in whether that direction is dictated by technology better serving the needs of users or if its more new technology for the sake of new technology (or for reducing cost). That gets even more interesting when you consider that situations and personal preferences can vary and that there may be no 'one size fits all' solution. In particular, being limited to only tablet based mixing may be perfectly acceptable or even preferred by some but may not be as viable or practical an option for others and I think it's great to have options that allow for more than one approach rather than having to adjust how you operate to a particular technology.

Its getting near the point where a custom digital surface is a cost effective option. I'm only half joking about this. Obviously it could be done, but the cost would be unimaginable. Since we are talking about one size fits all options (and quickly proving that control surfaces are as personal a choice as choosing a mate), my dream surface would be modular where, much like the home screen on your smartphone, you can install widgets and put whatever virtual faders or pots or settings wherever you want them to be and change them on the fly. Walk up to a blank tablet and install your customized mixing app that you've tweaked to your heart's content so that you know where everything is located and can get right to work. I want that.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

Tablet mixing as an ancillary device expands the possiblities, as the only device, it limits the possibilities. All mixing tasks are not created equal. Try mixing 64 or so inputs of a live, unrehearsed concert on a 8 fader +/- touchscreen and let me know how that works out for you. Just sayin. Everything has a place.

You need the CentiPad.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

With the technology that is represented by Google Glass, I can see a totally configurable user interface that you can set up and operate any way you like.

I'm sure that tablets will be pushing out the classic physical interface as we move forward, there is no question about that. But where does it go from there? I really think totally virtualized user interfaces are on their way. The bonus with something like this is you can configure your user interface however you want. So something like a universal control interface that can manipulate the console of your choice, AND be configured the way YOU want rather than the way someone else thinks it should be, is not that far away.
Which is great for some applications, but perhaps not as desired for others. Many schools, community centers, auditoria/lecture halls, community theaters and other venues where the mixer is provided by the venue rather than the operator already struggle with the multiple internal and external users potentially involved having to work with a configurable rather than defined mixer user interface. Having a known, predefined interface seems to potentially be more important than individualization where you may have to support a variety of users on a constantly changing, short term basis.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

I beleive that it will take some time of storming before the industry will start a phase of norming. After that the interfaces will meet some standards otherwise a manufacturer will not sell its products. This kind of evolution took place for analog mixers as well as a lot of other device types. In the early area of analog mixers, in the '40 'til the '70 there were a lot of different designs. The design we know today was the one who wins. The same will happen with digital mixers and their tablet surfaces.
In not so many years we will use tablets for mixing in the same ways we now use analog mixers.
Even now the differences between the apps for several mixers are marginal enough that I can switch easily between them. 'Knowing one is knowing all of them' is almost possible today.

Just my opinion.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

I beleive that it will take some time of storming before the industry will start a phase of norming. After that the interfaces will meet some standards otherwise a manufacturer will not sell its products. This kind of evolution took place for analog mixers as well as a lot of other device types. In the early area of analog mixers, in the '40 'til the '70 there were a lot of different designs. The design we know today was the one who wins. The same will happen with digital mixers and their tablet surfaces.
In not so many years we will use tablets for mixing in the same ways we now use analog mixers.
Even now the differences between the apps for several mixers are marginal enough that I can switch easily between them. 'Knowing one is knowing all of them' is almost possible today.

Just my opinion.

Even if you are able to understand the tablet application completely, with a digital mixer, the setup of the mixer can wildly change the way your mix work flow goes on it.

I can fairly quickly determine how any X32 is setup because I own one and have taken the time to research it quite extensively. Any other digital mixer, I would struggle to determine how it was routed unless someone went over it with me ahead of time.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

If you look at the innards of most current digital desks you see that there are multiples of 8 or 12 fader circuit boards either connected to a motherboard or to each other as if on a bus so it would be pretty easy (but maybe not cost effective) to offer various sizes of surfaces.

Then, take a bit of the A&H GLD drag & drop assignment of function vs position for the surface control, a few more scribble strip bits and programmable buttons and a protocol to talk ( wired or wireless ) to the mix engine and you get something like a tablet (or larger) with some actual faders.

Mixer meets tablet meets game controller meets network.


Sent from my iPad HD
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

If you look at the innards of most current digital desks you see that there are multiples of 8 or 12 fader circuit boards either connected to a motherboard or to each other as if on a bus so it would be pretty easy (but maybe not cost effective) to offer various sizes of surfaces.

Then, take a bit of the A&H GLD drag & drop assignment of function vs position for the surface control, a few more scribble strip bits and programmable buttons and a protocol to talk ( wired or wireless ) to the mix engine and you get something like a tablet (or larger) with some actual faders.

Mixer meets tablet meets game controller meets network.


Sent from my iPad HD

I think you are spot on. The physical interface will be removed from the mixer allowing the consumer the choice of using either or both a physical interface, and/or tablet interface.

A wide range of physical interfaces will be available from quite simple, to "almost analog" ;)
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

I'm not going to quote anyone on this topic, but I'm going to throw in a guess at what is going to happen (and/or is happening currently)

At some point, there needs to be a competition of workflow and competitive features/elements. This is one of the main things that differentiates digital mixers currently, and I think when we get further into tablet interfaces there will be a similar trend. Further, competition will HAVE to continue in some way. A standard interface is going to be pretty… uncompetitive.

Another thing that I'm seeing right now is that the tablet interface is merely a translation of what is currently used at the moment. I don't see any drastically different interfaces when compared to your "real" consoles- it's the same style of layout, just in different forms of layers/etc.

Who knows. I might be totally wrong. I'm tired and on meds at the moment.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

Which is great for some applications, but perhaps not as desired for others. Many schools, community centers, auditoria/lecture halls, community theaters and other venues where the mixer is provided by the venue rather than the operator already struggle with the multiple internal and external users potentially involved having to work with a configurable rather than defined mixer user interface. Having a known, predefined interface seems to potentially be more important than individualization where you may have to support a variety of users on a constantly changing, short term basis.
Oh yes! It will be an absolute requirement for those kinds of spaces to have a standardized system that will allow "those who manage and control the systems" (IOW, probably the "IT Department") to have a standard implementation for a given system. This is essentially what is done these days with systems like this which are extremely configurable.

As it is today with the systems that I have to support from the manufacturer's end of the stick, you can pull out the tablet of your choosing, connect it to a WiFi access point, point it to a specific IP address and port number, log in, and you can control whatever functions the system administrator has bestowed upon the user account that they provided you. In this situation, the installed system is highly standardized and repeatable so it can be installed in all the locations that the owner wants and it is easy to administrate. Yet they are configurable enough to allow pretty much any configuration your heart can imagine.

Now, do the same thing, but use Google Glass as the user interface instead of a tablet.

We are actually pretty much there already.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

Oh yes! It will be an absolute requirement for those kinds of spaces to have a standardized system that will allow "those who manage and control the systems" (IOW, probably the "IT Department") to have a standard implementation for a given system. This is essentially what is done these days with systems like this which are extremely configurable.
The issue is a standardized configuration with which external users will also be familiar. The local band playing one night at a church with their own person mixing, the high school or theatre troupe tech doing a performance at a local community theater, the corporate tech running a presentation or panel discussion at an off campus site, etc. Those users often need to be able to use a system with little or no advance configuration or training which means having to start with a configuration that they can easily understand and familiarize themselves with in advance.

With analog mixers all such users usually needed to know was what was connected to what inputs and outputs, if you had subgroups and how they were assigned, etc. That still works for some digital mixer configurations, but others are much more difficult to document and explain especially to someone that may have limited familiarity with a particular mixer or digital mixers in general.

What I have found is that what is best for a default external user configuration is often quite different than the preferred configuration for regular internal users. For example, you may normally split microphones across layers based on typical use or only use part of a layer for mics with the rest for other commonly used sources but having the mics in numerical order on layers may work better for someone wanting a 'default' configuration. Or you may assign certain mic inputs you use a lot to the first inputs and then skip to others, putting those that may physically or numerically be in between but are used less often on other layers, while a default setup may want to keep the microphones all in some logical or numerical order.

A simple example from a lecture hall was that for typical use they wanted the mixer programmed for left and right lectern mics, then the 'room' wireless mics then miscellaneous mics such as the other 6 wired mic inputs at the front of the room. But for a default setup for outside users it might make more sense to have all 8 of the wired mic inputs in order house left to right (which also happen to be numbered 1-8) as inputs 1-8 then the 'room' wireless mics. But either way, an external user needs to know what they are walking into.

And I apologize for getting Phil's thread so far off his original topic.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

Tablet interfaces are superb for walking about and tweaking during set-up or sound-check, but I wouldn't want to actually mix musical theatre on one. Eight faders (DCAs) is probably enough, but I like to mix with my eyes on the stage and my fingers on real faders. If I have to keep looking down to see if I'm putting my fingertips in the right place, I'll miss something.
 
Re: Replacing the Presonus 16.4.2 - suggestions please

Tablet interfaces are superb for walking about and tweaking during set-up or sound-check, but I wouldn't want to actually mix musical theatre on one. Eight faders (DCAs) is probably enough, but I like to mix with my eyes on the stage and my fingers on real faders. If I have to keep looking down to see if I'm putting my fingertips in the right place, I'll miss something.

Not to mention there's always that guitarist who speaks between every song regardless of his lack of vocals through the majority of the setlist. I've missed that one more than once even when looking at the stage, and a tablet isn't gonna help.

Phil, after reviewing what has come out of NAMM, I'd stick with what was already out there. The Qu-16 is a solid console and will do it's job in your case. That's my 2 cents.