Restaurant audio System

Re: Restaurant audio System

Sammy elliott said:
I originally posted this thread asking for advise on how-to install or pick a good 70 v audio system... I received good advise and some really useless ones. I'm an electrical and computer engineer which makes me pretty comfortable with the electrical and digital arenas, but not as much so with the audio, beside the home audio systems. As an engineer, I'm a big believer in the design and planning, hence, my original post. But when I read from the so-called experts discouraging big words (regardless if the sincerity) I became more determined to pursue my plan and find help elsewhere. which I did...

In closing, The audio system looks and sounds really great. It took me longer to put the plan together and order the parts, but it was certainly worth the extra days. :D~:-D~:grin:

I'm sharing my restaurant design and hoping that someone can use it as a template. God bless.
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your chosen speaker wire is not plenum rated. if you've run it in any ceiling spaces (which I assume you have based on your speaker choices) then you've violated fire code and could release toxic smoke into the ventilation system if there is a fire
"in-wall" is different from "in-ceiling"

Just because it works doesn't mean its done right

do not pass "GO", do not collect $200

Jason
 
Re: Restaurant audio System

Jason Lavoie said:
your chosen speaker wire is not plenum rated. if you've run it in any ceiling spaces (which I assume you have based on your speaker choices) then you've violated fire code and could release toxic smoke into the ventilation system if there is a fire
"in-wall" is different from "in-ceiling"

Just because it works doesn't mean its done right

do not pass "GO", do not collect $200

Jason
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... and the speakers are made in China or India by some child labor. The cardboard that's used for shipping is made of Trees cut from Canadian forest depleting our oxygen supply..etc... there are a lot of wrongs in life, it all depends on where you stand (and live)
Please tell me that there is something wrong with the technical design other than hypothetical what if scenarios.

There are no codes in where the restaurant is located to support your argument. The audio system works and done right... thank you for your "professional" opinion.
 
Re: Restaurant audio System

Sammy elliott said:
There are no codes in where the restaurant is located to support your argument. The audio system works and done right... thank you for your "professional" opinion.
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If this is installed in the US, there are almost certainly codes that dictate the type of wire that is required.

In general, though, plenum ratings are only required in spaces used for environmental air, riser ratings are required for any cable that extends vertically through multiple floors, and -X cabling can only be used in residential applications. Note that a plenum rating also impies a riser rating.
 
Re: Restaurant audio System

Arthur Skudra said:
Low voltage wiring must follow NEC code. Period, end of story.
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The NEC is a model Code, and is not backed by law unless it has been specifically adopted by the local (or state) government. That said, virtually all jurisdictions have adopted the NEC in some form (although not always the latest version, and sometimes with ammendments)
 
Re: Restaurant audio System

Sammy elliott said:
There are no codes in where the restaurant is located to support your argument. The audio system works and done right... thank you for your "professional" opinion.
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Actually, Jason is a professional. It's you who's the amateur. And a rude one at that. Let's see how good you are with the American idiom:

Two word phrase of seven letters, form 4/3, beginning and ending with "f".
 
Re: Restaurant audio System

Dick Rees said:
Actually, Jason is a professional. It's you who's the amateur. And a rude one at that. Let's see how good you are with the American idiom:

Two word phrase of seven letters, form 4/3, beginning and ending with "f".
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From you Dick, I'll take that as a compliment. Keep in mind that you were the first to reply with the "I'm not ashamed phrase..." I guess you are still living up to that principal even though the odds are against you.

Relax everyone.... The audio system was installed and inspected by both city inspectors and fire Marshall part of the overall remodeling efforts that included the electrical, plumbing, a 1200 sqft addon, etc... The Alarm system installer, who is also an A\V installer, confirmed that there are very few A/V code requirements that apply in our scenarios.

Again, the Audio is working, the restaurant is jamming, the owner is happy, and so am I...
 
Re: Restaurant audio System

Sammy elliott said:
From you Dick, I'll take that as a compliment. Keep in mind that you were the first to reply with the "I'm not ashamed phrase..." I guess you are still living up to that principal even though the odds are against you.

Relax everyone.... The audio system was installed and inspected by both city inspectors and fire Marshall part of the overall remodeling efforts that included the electrical, plumbing, a 1200 sqft addon, etc... The Alarm system installer, who is also an A\V installer, confirmed that there are very few A/V code requirements that apply in our scenarios.

Again, the Audio is working, the restaurant is jamming, the owner is happy, and so am I...
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The problem comes when and if there's a problem. If there happens to be a fire (what.....a fire in a restaurant?), your typical insurance company will look for any out in paying the claim. It's the nature of the (insurance) business. This includes the probability that any non-NEC approved wiring, whether inspected or not, will be called into question. At best, it means extra time spent in litigation. At worst, it means the insurance company is off the hook.

This is not a personal criticism, simply a statement of how things work out there in the world of liability. Whether you choose to take complete responsibility for your choices and actions in such a situation is up to you. The difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional will do everything possible to avoid putting the "customer" in an untenable situation vis a vis their insurance coverage, including being bonded and carrying the requisite liability insurance while many amateurs will not.

Insurance companies make no allowances for "helping out a friend" or which inspector signed off on a job. They'll look for any loop-hole which lets them avoid paying out any money.

Is the money "saved" on non-approved wiring worth the gamble in this litigious society?
 
Re: Restaurant audio System

I don't even want to get into the attitude adjustments needed, but IMO this is not just an issue of insurance and liability. These codes are ultimately based on human safety concerns. While discussions of liability may be more compelling to more people, I find human safety an adequate reason to use the correct wire.

JR
 
If you're hoping the city inspector and the alarm installer's advice will save your ass, you are in way over your head (as is already abundantly clear). It's like taking advice on the law from the police: They might be right, they might (probably) be wrong, but in the end it doesn't matter what they told you, they are not liable for their statements and you are liable for your action.
 
Re: Restaurant audio System

Dick Rees said:
The problem comes when and if there's a problem. If there happens to be a fire (what.....a fire in a restaurant?), your typical insurance company will look for any out in paying the claim. It's the nature of the (insurance) business. This includes the probability that any non-NEC approved wiring, whether inspected or not, will be called into question. At best, it means extra time spent in litigation. At worst, it means the insurance company is off the hook.

This is not a personal criticism, simply a statement of how things work out there in the world of liability. Whether you choose to take complete responsibility for your choices and actions in such a situation is up to you. The difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional will do everything possible to avoid putting the "customer" in an untenable situation vis a vis their insurance coverage, including being bonded and carrying the requisite liability insurance while many amateurs will not.

Insurance companies make no allowances for "helping out a friend" or which inspector signed off on a job. They'll look for any loop-hole which lets them avoid paying out any money.

Is the money "saved" on non-approved wiring worth the gamble in this litigious society?
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Except that the wiring in use is UL listed as type CL3R, which is appropriate for the use at hand provided that it is not being run in a space used for environmental air (see Article 300.22(c) for locations that need plenum ratings. One such example is the space above drop ceilings that gets used as a return air plenum, but is not specifically constructed as such).

It's certainly possible, and indeed likely, that this installation is using the cable appropriately. And given that the installation has been approved by the AHJ, I'm going to guess that's the case.
 
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