running commentary on middle east policy and news.

[Marjan Milosevic]

Re: running commentary on middle east policy and news.

People should realize that this is all for someones profit. Forget those human right and democracy mumbo jumbo.

Israel is refusing to let Palestinians have their own country for decades. What do they expect then? Everyone there hates them, without exception. Even those countries that are USA allies. Their greedy governments or rulers are supporting USA interests purely out of personal gain they have. But peoples opinion is quite different.
It is just a mater of time when all forces there (Hamas, Hezbollah and many more) unite and throw Israel forces to the Mediterranean sea.

US people should be more aware of how things actually works.

First the greedy Corporations influence the government to start some war. Reason for starting it is always quite fake but that is of no importance here.
Then the US army devastate the country's infrastructure and industry.
Next move is putting a puppet government that will just ratify what its told.
Then US Congress gives billion of tax dollars (meaning YOUR money) to rebuild the country.
Who gets the contracts for that?
The same corporations mentioned at the beginning.
Who owns them? You know that better then me.

So it is all driven by a greed.
Why dont USA interfere in Syria? Or Somalia? There are far worse examples then middle east. But no interest there.

As one who experienced in its life how USA democratize one country i can say you better stay home.
It is simple as that. Some countries are better to be left as they are.

If you dont agree with me, please let me know of one example where such interference as it is going on right now actually did anything good.

Take Saddam as an example. He was a dictator and he did some crimes. But is that comparable with today's situation and what was done in the mean time.
How many people have died since the first gulf war?
I have no idea but it if a very big number. Feel free to let me know if you have any close number.

So, what Saddam was doing was a child game comparing to this.

So should be also aware that in some regions there is no other way to keep the peace but ruling with a steel fist. You live in such different world that you have absolutely no idea how it is to live there.

USA and the western countries are financing all rebels in Syria, as they did in all countries affected by the so caller Arab Spring.
They financed a group of criminals that after they serve the purpose you can not control. Proven many time in history. Whats going on now in Egypt and Libya?
A total mess. Christians are killed and forced to leave their homes in Egypt. In Libya, there will be no peace for a looong time. Watch it now when inter tribe wars starts. They will kill each other ruthlessly to gain power. There are 120 of them.

I am not smart enough to say what should done. But this is not the right way either.

And i left Iran for the end.
Did they actually threatening anyone? They are not. Someone mentioned that they tried to influence the rest of the countries there and have proven record for that.
So is USA. A very proven record on putting puppet governments all over Latin America. We know how all that ended. Should we be reminded?
And who decide who can have nuclear weapons and who does not? If you ask me USA is the only nation that actually used it. So they again have proven record for that too.

I can go on like this for too long.
Try to be aware of one thing. People outside USA think differently, and most of the world population is hating USA. There are many, many reasons for that. Most of them truly justified.

This can not go on forever.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: running commentary on middle east policy and news.

Let's just say I think it would be better if nobody had nukes than if everybody had them...

I can imagine lots of things that would be better... but listing them is not productive. Lets try to focus on what to do, from where we are to make things better.

The only reason "we" (read: you) keep them is as backup in case we actually run out of other effective weapons to acheive our goals. Countries like Iran probably feel like they have run out of other effective weapons now...

That statement of opinion makes some rather large assumptions about agenda and intent.

I am not proud of the fact that we used nuclear weapons in war, but after the fact analysis, that I have seen suggests it saved lives on both sides by avoiding a bloody ground invasion into Japan. They weren't likely to surrender without a serious fight, to the end.

The history since then should be pretty well known, but probably exists in several different versions depending on your perspective.

Once again I ask for thoughtful consideration for how to make things better from here, not just whining about how messed up something is. That is not constructive. Our history with the soviets to nudge them to secure and dispose of their excess weapons inventory safely has been largely an exchange of our money to them to pay for, what they should be doing by themselves.

IMO the world doesn't need any more nuclear weapons. The jocular suggestion to just give them to everybody would not end well. This assumes rational behavior by all actors, and we should know by now that many in leadership positions have been playing with a deck that is short a few cards with extra jokers. Reviewing Khadaffi's speeches at the UN should give some insight into his mental state. He was pursuing nuclear weapons until getting discouraged by Saddam's fate.

My judgement is that it takes two to tango and Israel can dance very well.

Cute, but I do not see Israel as the aggressor here... They seem singularly focused on defensive preservation of their state. If Europe wants them to give up the dirt there, offer return to their former residences in Europe. The israeli/Palestinian conflict is an open sore, kept raw by other states in the region as a surrogate attack against Israel that they can't or won't openly admit to. All those missiles that land on Israeli may be launched from nearby but ultimately the support comes from other neighbors in the region. It is inaccurate to think of this as just a dispute between those two parties.

What I find most surprising about this is that an advanced nation like the USA actually has citizens enlightened enough to vote who don't own something as simple as a photo ID. Couldn't they just slide it into the back of their Ipad case? :lol:

I alluded to the game within the game. On one side there is a concern about voter fraud, where political operatives run up vote numbers with fake voters. Some were so brazen as to register as Disney characters. Many examples of dead people apparently rising from the grave to vote, etc. I recall in one voting district in my state, a couple elections ago, they counted more votes than they had registered voters. On the other side the argument is that other political operatives try to discourage legal voters from exercising their right. There are historical examples of this too, with abuses from both sides.

The argument that picture voter ID is too high of a barrier and engineered to prevent legal voters from voting seems pretty thin to me. I do see how it might discourage non-citizens from voting, and make fraud a little harder.

Since I last voted only yesterday it seems like it should be pretty easy to me, to ask voters who lack a picture ID and are unknown to the poll station personnel, to leave behind a finger print and sit for a quick photo, maybe give them a temporary ID on the spot. We already have to sign a ledger and vocally attest to who we are. If a decision is close enough to be contested, these questionable votes can be later reviewed and researched to determine the validity of these undocumented voters. There is an emotional knee-jerk reaction against a scenario where we have to show our "papers" to exercise our rights since the implication is that the state could withhold these papers and deny these rights, while we routinely need papers to exercise the "privilege" of driving a car on public streets, and the state routinely withholds that privilege for just cause. .

The second most surprising is that the UN would spend time on this. Here, photo ID to vote is a matter of course.

Perhaps one reason for the resistance... "Show us your papers" ... For Americans this is something out of an old movie (placed in a foreign country) and mostly about letters of transit or something similar used to push some plot point. :-( The UN has long been a podium for hyperbolic criticism of the US, and some of the appointments to various commissions seem contextually bizarre. Often mostly well behaved western nations get charged, while horrendous offenders get a free pass. it is hard to take these agencies seriously, while some do.

JR

 

[John Roberts]

Re: running commentary on middle east policy and news.

People should realize that this is all for someones profit. Forget those human right and democracy mumbo jumbo.

I can't forget it.

Israel is refusing to let Palestinians have their own country for decades. What do they expect then? Everyone there hates them, without exception. Even those countries that are USA allies. Their greedy governments or rulers are supporting USA interests purely out of personal gain they have. But peoples opinion is quite different.
It is just a mater of time when all forces there (Hamas, Hezbollah and many more) unite and throw Israel forces to the Mediterranean sea.

One long term strategy seems to maintain an ugly status quo and out grow them with population. Israel has a more European birth rate, while the Palestinians have more children per couple, while a cynic might suggest they need more children to replace the suicide bombers.

Israel could easily provide gainful employment for much of the Palestinian work force, but whenever Israel relaxes free transit between the territories, bad actors use that access to attack innocent civilians. Since this is counter productive for the welfare of the palestinian people, I can only imagine that this is driven by outside agitators to keep this region hot and disputed.

US people should be more aware of how things actually works.

I am always open for data, not so much to unproved conspiracy theories.

First the greedy Corporations influence the government to start some war. Reason for starting it is always quite fake but that is of no importance here.
Then the US army devastate the country's infrastructure and industry.
Next move is putting a puppet government that will just ratify what its told.
Then US Congress gives billion of tax dollars (meaning YOUR money) to rebuild the country.
Who gets the contracts for that?
The same corporations mentioned at the beginning.
Who owns them? You know that better then me.

No, please clarify.

So it is all driven by a greed.
Why dont USA interfere in Syria? Or Somalia? There are far worse examples then middle east. But no interest there.

Somalia is a largely lawless region, where piracy seems to be the local industry. The US tries to offer some protection to ships in the region, but this is another case of a region that needs economic progress to support a local rule of law. No simple answer, and our magic wand is running out of money to wave over every poor country.

Russia and China both vetoed a US proposal in UN Security council.. not sure how we are the bad guys here.. Sen McCain has proposed a no-gly zone over Syria, not unlike what NAto did in Libya, and as we did for years over the Kurdish region in norther Iraq to help the people. With the modern political climate, and leaning, I don't see the current US administration going out on a limb for Syria, and that is too bad. This looks like an opportunity to overthrow another bad leader, who has been linked to manipulating Lebanese politics etc.

As one who experienced in its life how USA democratize one country i can say you better stay home.
It is simple as that. Some countries are better to be left as they are.

Can't have it both ways... act in Syria and Somalia, or stay home?

If you dont agree with me, please let me know of one example where such interference as it is going on right now actually did anything good.

I remin optimistic about the fledgling democracy in Iraq. There are millions around the world who were helped by the US support for democracy, while we have not been without our share of mistakes.

Take Saddam as an example. He was a dictator and he did some crimes. But is that comparable with today's situation and what was done in the mean time.
How many people have died since the first gulf war?
I have no idea but it if a very big number. Feel free to let me know if you have any close number.

So, what Saddam was doing was a child game comparing to this.

I don't consider using poison gas on your own people as child's play, but his internal behavior is an internal matter. When he decided to invade Kuwait, just because he could, he crossed a line. He was not a passive player in the region.

So should be also aware that in some regions there is no other way to keep the peace but ruling with a steel fist. You live in such different world that you have absolutely no idea how it is to live there.

Is that living? Some don't consider that acceptable, while it is an unfortunate testament to the evils of man, and how far we still have to progress from here.

USA and the western countries are financing all rebels in Syria, as they did in all countries affected by the so caller Arab Spring.
They financed a group of criminals that after they serve the purpose you can not control. Proven many time in history. Whats going on now in Egypt and Libya?

Perhaps we have an overly optimistic view of opposition to oppressive regimes. At one point our founders were criminals from the perspective of our British rulers. As a nation we have led a charmed existence and I don't try to compare our situation to the many examples of far worse modern oppression including genocide going on today (like Darfur).

A total mess. Christians are killed and forced to leave their homes in Egypt. In Libya, there will be no peace for a looong time. Watch it now when inter tribe wars starts. They will kill each other ruthlessly to gain power. There are 120 of them.

Yes, with simple democracy you need to be careful what you wish for. The brotherhood in Egypt is far from what many hoped for but this was known to observer at the time.
-----
This is a damned if you do, damned if you don't choice. Appeasing dictators generally does not end well either, but we do our share of that when it is the easiest path to serve out interests. There is no simple answers for complex problems, and not trying rarely helps anybody.

I am not smart enough to say what should done. But this is not the right way either.

And i left Iran for the end.
Did they actually threatening anyone? They are not. Someone mentioned that they tried to influence the rest of the countries there and have proven record for that.

Today? ever? recently... Iran threatens pre-emptive action against Israel - Telegraph Of course this will be explained away as reactionary. Iran's fingerprints have been found all around the region, while i find the recent attempts by Hamas and Hezbollah to distance themselves from iran as interesting. It may be simply them reading the tea leaves and positioning themselves for a future with a weaker iran.

So is USA. A very proven record on putting puppet governments all over Latin America. We know how all that ended. Should we be reminded?
And who decide who can have nuclear weapons and who does not? If you ask me USA is the only nation that actually used it. So they again have proven record for that too.

Guilty as charged... As compared to puppet states supported by other national interests. What is your point?

I can go on like this for too long.
Try to be aware of one thing. People outside USA think differently, and most of the world population is hating USA. There are many, many reasons for that. Most of them truly justified.

This can not go on forever.

Indeed...

JR

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: running commentary on middle east policy and news.

I can't forget it.

One long term strategy seems to maintain an ugly status quo and out grow them with population. Israel has a more European birth rate, while the Palestinians have more children per couple, while a cynic might suggest they need more children to replace the suicide bombers.

JR. As much as I usually enjoy having quality discussions with you, you just crossed the line for me by posting something incredibly disrespectful and seemingly ignorant.

The realist knows that birth rate is almost always proportional to the perceived need for many children to secure one's future and replace those that never make it to adult age due to the hardships of life. People like the Palestinians are experiencing very hard times both overtly through abuse and embargos on items that should be accessible to anyone, and covertly in all kinds of sneaky ways relabelled to sound like innocent politics.

The European birth rate in Israel is for me a good indicator that people aren't overly afraid of their children not reaching adulthood.

I'll choose to pull out of this discussion now. I'm sure will find nicer subjects to discuss in the future.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: running commentary on middle east policy and news.

JR. As much as I usually enjoy having quality discussions with you, you just crossed the line for me by posting something incredibly disrespectful and seemingly ignorant.

The realist knows that birth rate is almost always proportional to the perceived need for many children to secure one's future and replace those that never make it to adult age due to the hardships of life. People like the Palestinians are experiencing very hard times both overtly through abuse and embargos on items that should be accessible to anyone, and covertly in all kinds of sneaky ways relabelled to sound like innocent politics.

The European birth rate in Israel is for me a good indicator that people aren't overly afraid of their children not reaching adulthood.

I'll choose to pull out of this discussion now. I'm sure will find nicer subjects to discuss in the future.

I wrote a long answer that the computer ate... (waited too long to finish it), probably just as well... I fear some of my answers involve TMI for people only paying superficial attention to world issues, and of course I can always be wrong about stuff too.

The use of procreation for some organizational purpose is hardly a new concept. I won't further offend with historical citations but the US promotes child bearing with tax credits, the Chinese discourage making too many daughters, etc. This is just recent history, the use of this lever goes back pretty far in history. Ignoring demographic trends when taking a longer view of the world is ignoring one important piece of the puzzle.

My replacement of the children suicide bombers was intentionally shocking, but i am very frustrated by watching this specific Israeli/Palestinian peace process drag on for decades without real progress. Yassar Arrafat left Camp david with what appeared to be a settlement in hand, only to watch it fall apart. The only thing that makes sense is some longer game at play where somebody, or more than one faction in the region, benefits from a bellicose status quo. I don't see how this helps either Israel or the Palestinians, I suspect other powers in the region are working behind the scenes to prevent peace that would benefit both Israelis and Palestinians..

I have crossed my own line into speculation and conspiracy, so will stop now...

I too am weary of listening to JR pontificate about everything under the sun, and his boss wants him to get back to work.

JR

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: running commentary on middle east policy and news.

Hello,

I cannot forsee a time when there will be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. They both claim the land as holy land, and neither are willing to move from the area. And... there are too many people on both sides, that hold power and are unwilling to let the issue be settled, because if there was a mutually agreed upon deal, then, these in power may no longer be needed...in power.

If the religion was taken out of the conflict....it would still not be settled.

I think that the conflict will become more aggressive this summer, and I see another, bigger conflict with more Nations lining up on one side or the other.

Hammer

 

[Marjan Milosevic]

Re: running commentary on middle east policy and news.

Now i would like to make a conclusion about the level of hypocrisy and use of double standards.
Isn't that situation in Israel/Palestine exactly the same as was in Kosovo?
With a difference that 60-70 years ago there were like 10000 ethnic Albanians there, and now are 2 million. Hence the multiple children way to claim territories in the future.
Then why now Nato dont bomb Israel?