School

JP Huff

JP Huff

Freshman
Jun 2, 2013
67
0
0
30
Saint Paul, Minnesota, United States
So I go to a music school for Live Sound Reinforcement (or Live Sound Engineering, whatever you want to call the program). Before everyone goes off and is like "bad choice", I just want to know what people honestly think about guys like me who will have a "diploma" coming into the business. I know the best teacher is the industry itself, but don't you think short 3 semester programs like mine are helpful and a good start? Yay, nay?
 
Re: School

First off, what are your expectations ??
Did the school promise mixing A-gigs right out the door ?? - hint - Ain't gonna happen.
I have apprenticed 6 or 7 "graduates" of "Fluff Stale" and "Treeeee-bas". None ended well.
You aren't going to get the keys to my big (or medium) rig, and certainly not the keys to the trucks until you earn them.
Gee, that's kinda just like anyone else that walks in my door. Imagine that !
Shop maintenance, coffee fetcher, cable re-solderer, patch cord maker, and eventually rack assembly and pre-patch are what needs to be accomplished before I would even take you out to a gig. Then it would likely be a few S-O-S with you driving, and me pulling a cable here or there to see if your troubleshooting and "cool under pressure" skills are up to the job.
Ya, Monitor beach is going to be a long way off......
FOH on a 10 man crew.... even longer.
By the way, the only folks that get to call themselves engineers, and don't have university papers, are Train Drivers.
Chris.
 
Re: School

Chris Hindle said:
By the way, the only folks that get to call themselves engineers, and don't have university papers, are Train Drivers.
Chris.
Click to expand...

Well, back in the day you had to be an engineer to operate a train without blowing up the boiler.

Engineers have been associated with mixing sound because early studio engineers had to design and build a lot of their own gear.

The irony about this thread is a job applicant with an engineering degree but no hands on sound experience has little chance of getting the gig.

I do not expect many to be very receptive to a formal degree in live sound alone... If it comes with a bunch of industry experience, more education is always better.

Good luck.

JR
 
Re: School

Yeah I suppose if someone comes out of school and is like "Why am I not already on tour mixing at FOH?" thats dumb. I was just hoping for it to give me a boost and get some dumb screw up mistakes done here. Like in one of my classes, we mix bands and ensembles from the school. That gives me the chance to screw up by turning phantom power on without muting the channel, or I can learn how to solder. Like you said, I dont expect A gigs from the start, but if they did come my way I wouldn't be scared of them. That was my expectation. So far it's lived up to it. But I try to go out and do "real world shows" as much as possible to help me realize the real world. Something goes wrong in class, we stop and fix it. If something goes wrong on the "real world show" I get yelled at or we just keep trucking through it.
 
Re: School

JP Huff said:
So I go to a music school for Live Sound Reinforcement (or Live Sound Engineering, whatever you want to call the program). Before everyone goes off and is like "bad choice", I just want to know what people honestly think about guys like me who will have a "diploma" coming into the business. I know the best teacher is the industry itself, but don't you think short 3 semester programs like mine are helpful and a good start? Yay, nay?
Click to expand...

I walked in the front door of a production house as an undergraduate, with some theatrical board running experience, and some knowledge about how the physics of speakers and arrays worked. Talked it better than I walked it. I worked cheap, very part time, and decided to take instructions.

The kind of things I learned on the job:
  • How to wrap cables, and in a manner compatible for right handed people (I'm a southpaw)
  • Prepping for a day in the sun sweating. Suncreen/shoes/socks/baby powder/hydration
  • How to lift properly
  • How to use an intercom radio
  • How to string and coil cable and dress a stage
  • Packing up stands in a stand case
  • Patching a console and outboard
  • Breakup and teardown
  • Packing a truck
  • Metering power, and the various bits of production power
  • How to swap speaker components and do other simple bench work

To be clear, my head knowledge in terms of audio physics at this time was decently good. I was reading the AES loudspeaker anthologies on the side, I could use JBL(!) SMAART as well as anyone else in the area, and was playing around with cardioid and endfire arrays 14 years ago. But that head knowledge didn't matter much at a gig, as I was learning how to patch and dress a stage, how to assemble decking, put together speaker towers/flyware, etc. The "mechanical vocabulary" that I was picking up at the time was what mattered most to running a production business.

The stuff above is all practical. It gets a gig done, and enables to have some time behind a board. If your program is giving you this type of domain knowledge and experience, you'll be fine out in the field as you approach production houses for work. If your program isn't doing this stuff, then start spending your free time working/volunteering at a production house (or for a band) before you graduate.

Good luck!
 
Re: School

JP Huff said:
Totally makes sense! We do learn a lot of this and I interned at a company over the summer (and still go hang out here and there) so I picked up even more. Good to know Im on the right track!
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You should be continuing to work with this company, and if you are not, ascertain why. If it is only a matter of money, you should be doing gigs for them pro bono as you continue school for continuity of experience.
 
Re: School

Chris Hindle said:
By the way, the only folks that get to call themselves engineers, and don't have university papers, are Train Drivers.
Chris.
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

I'll have to disagree with that one. After 24 years of professional experience, with over 22 years of that as monitor engineer for worldwide acts on hundreds of flawless shows, designing, fabricating, and repairing audio and radio equipment at component level with many, many happy customers, autodidactic study of physics, audio engineering, and RF engineering, and starting one's own successful engineering-related company, a guy with only a high school diploma doesn't qualify as an engineer? Even, arguably, a master of the craft? Does a person's accomplishments outside of academia not form a solid foundation of status?


JP,

In my humble opinion, formal education is a great place to start in obtaining the fundamental knowledge you'll need later, on the job. It gains you little status, though, and you'll be expected to work hard and smart to climb the ladder to where you want to go. But it is not, by any means, the only path to success.
 
Re: School

Jason Glass said:
Hi Chris,

I'll have to disagree with that one. After 24 years of professional experience, with over 22 years of that as monitor engineer for worldwide acts on hundreds of flawless shows, designing, fabricating, and repairing audio and radio equipment at component level with many, many happy customers, autodidactic study of physics, audio engineering, and RF engineering, and starting one's own successful engineering-related company, a guy with only a high school diploma doesn't qualify as an engineer?
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Not in the province of Quebec.
If you're not a membre of "l’Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec" you cannot legally call yourself an engineer.
Been there, done that, got slapped, had to re-do some promo material, and the fuckers never sent me a t-shirt.

I've been doing this since the late 70's. Everyone calls me an engineer but me. I'm the "Sound Guy", or "Sound Tech". Many times I'm just called " Hey You! "
As long as you have my checque, you can call me whatever the hell makes you happy :twisted:
 
Re: School

Chris Hindle said:
Not in the province of Quebec.
If you're not a membre of "l’Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec" you cannot legally call yourself an engineer.
Been there, done that, got slapped, had to re-do some promo material, and the fuckers never sent me a t-shirt.

I've been doing this since the late 70's. Everyone calls me an engineer but me. I'm the "Sound Guy", or "Sound Tech". Many times I'm just called " Hey You! "
As long as you have my checque, you can call me whatever the hell makes you happy :twisted:
Click to expand...


I'd be more bummed about the shirt..
 
Re: School

Hi Chris,

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. I was aware that licenses are required for some kinds of engineers here in the USA, like structural engineers, but not for audio engineers. See, JP, the learning never stops, and we often learn when we find out that we're wrong about something!
 
Re: School

My highest (only) degree is a high school diploma...

So you better not call me an engineer.... :-(

I believe there may be some similar rules about calling yourself a "professional engineer" in several US state laws.

JR
 
Re: School

Chris Hindle said:
Not in the province of Quebec.
If you're not a membre of "l’Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec" you cannot legally call yourself an engineer.
Been there, done that, got slapped, had to re-do some promo material, and the fuckers never sent me a t-shirt.

I've been doing this since the late 70's. Everyone calls me an engineer but me. I'm the "Sound Guy", or "Sound Tech". Many times I'm just called " Hey You! "
As long as you have my checque, you can call me whatever the hell makes you happy :twisted:
Click to expand...

Similar situation in Norway. An engineer holds a protected title that needs to be earned. Funnily enough, however, if a certain job position is legally an engineering position, anyone who is seen fit for employment gets a short-cut to that title.
 
Re: School

Jason Glass said:
I'll have to disagree with that one. After 24 years of professional experience, with over 22 years of that as monitor engineer for worldwide acts on hundreds of flawless shows, designing, fabricating, and repairing audio and radio equipment at component level with many, many happy customers, autodidactic study of physics, audio engineering, and RF engineering, and starting one's own successful engineering-related company, a guy with only a high school diploma doesn't qualify as an engineer? Even, arguably, a master of the craft? Does a person's accomplishments outside of academia not form a solid foundation of status?
Click to expand...

Jason, without question you are an expert and leader in the field, but engineer is an academic term(albeit watered down in recent history), and requires academic credibility. I, a soon to be BS in Electrical Engineering degree holder, will not be considered an engineer in the engineering community without successfully passing the FE and even PE exam. It's not an easy title to academically earn, I'm definitely struggling through it.
 
Re: School

Cameron Stuckey said:
Jason, without question you are an expert and leader in the field, but engineer is an academic term(albeit watered down in recent history), and requires academic credibility. I, a soon to be BS in Electrical Engineering degree holder, will not be considered an engineer in the engineering community without successfully passing the FE and even PE exam. It's not an easy title to academically earn, I'm definitely struggling through it.
Click to expand...

A "professional" engineer is a different category that tests to certify a specific knowledge base different than a degreed engineer or the generic engineer.

To be considered an engineer by the engineering community depends on how you define the engineering community? I was allowed to join the AES, IEEE, and was granted 9 utility patents by the PTO without PE credentials (I don't have any degree).

Perhaps I won't be considered an engineer by the PE community without a PE certificate, but i can live with that. The electrons do not know the difference, so still do as i direct them.

Having managed a group of engineers I did not find engineering degrees predictive of their ability to perform their job tasks well. AFAIK I've only known one PE but there may have been more. The PE I knew was a good engineer, while I knew far more good engineers who weren't PEs.

Engineering is a general activity that involves applying a common knowledge base (math, physics, etc), to solve problems or accomplish tasks in the real world. PE is a subset of the broader class of all engineers narrowly defined by passing a certification test.

I am not a PE so do not know of any more details that may be significant. I believe there may be additional liability associated with being a PE and signing off on a design, but our legal system tends to go after the deep pockets, certified or not.

JR
 
Re: School

I don't really give a hoot what degrees you have or whether you call yourself an engineer, it's what you've done lately that matters.

But I do have an observation about the professional engineer (PE) designation, at least in these parts (Silicon Valley). It only ever seems to come up for civil or mechanical engineers who need to stamp drawings for governmental approval, such as building permits, and includes electrical engineers of the sort that do wiring for industrial plants.

Among the folks who design chips, consumer products, or industrial products it's pretty much unheard of. I designed electronics for semiconductor manufacturing equipment and medical equipment for years and only one of the electrical, mechanical, optical or software engineers I worked with had a PE (mechanical) so far as I knew. And no one ever asked me if I had a PE when I did consulting.

Just my observation from my little world.

--Frank
 
Re: School

A friend of mine who works in the government (of course, I can't tell you where or doing what because I don't even think her family knows...) has found that while people who haven't gone through college aren't necessarily any less intelligent, they "think differently." She attributes it to the fact that because almost all college degrees put you through a base set of classes that are relatively standard, college graduates have been exposed to a similar set of ideas, and end up being able to express their ideas more accurately, creatively, and inventively, as well as have a better sense of understanding ideas that are formed by other people- especially other graduates.
 
Re: School

max warasila said:
a friend of mine who works in the government (of course, i can't tell you where or doing what because i don't even think her family knows...) has found that while people who haven't gone through college aren't necessarily any less intelligent, they "think differently." she attributes it to the fact that because almost all college degrees put you through a base set of classes that are relatively standard, college graduates have been exposed to a similar set of ideas, and end up being able to express their ideas more accurately, creatively, and inventively, as well as have a better sense of understanding ideas that are formed by other people- especially other graduates.
Click to expand...
:-) :-)

jr
 
For EE the only ones that have use of a PE are those who must submit plans to a state agency. Unless you work in power or deal with industrial safety systems, its largely a moot point, unless your employer pays extra for having it. Even though I do PFC retrofits for industrial systems, I don't need to have a PE to submit plans for permits. Your experience may vary as sc is notoriously lax compared to other states.
 
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