Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

@Shane Presley

@Ian beaver
The main reason I do not want to augment the QSC KW 153s with anything (like a second KW 153 per side) is because the last time I tried that I did not like the trade off. The comb filtering was too much for the added coverage it did bring.

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I never suggested adding to the QSCs. Yes using multiple cabinets that are truly designed to array will result is lowering the sound quality.

If you need louder-then louder boxes are needed-not more of the same.

It is good you are thinking that way.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

I never suggested adding to the QSCs. Yes using multiple cabinets that are truly designed to array will result is lowering the sound quality.

If you need louder-then louder boxes are needed-not more of the same.

It is good you are thinking that way.

Right on, I've seen a few people doing that around here and it always sucks (especially if I like the band). I try to live life based on the use of science instead of magic, but the temptation is always there and we all succumb to it occasionally.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

Right on, I've seen a few people doing that around here and it always sucks (especially if I like the band). I try to live life based on the use of science instead of magic, but the temptation is always there and we all succumb to it occasionally.

About 15 or 20 years ago I had figured out how to make reasonably good sound on a consistent basis; I'm still learning to make a consistent profit as the nature of expenses change, the regulatory environment evolves (transportation & H.R.) and client expectations morph.

Get thee to your local bookseller and find something like "Cost Accounting for the Audio-Addicted". Failing that, My First Little Book of Cost Accounting.... 8)~8-)~:cool:

Write a thorough business plan. Get a mentor from Service Corps of Retired Executives (SCORE, formerly a Small Biz Administration program). You need to know where your costs of doing business really occur, not simply where the cash gets spent and you need to have a reasonably concrete idea of where your gross revenue will come from and what you need to do to maximize it. The business plan, the cost accounting and a crusty old guy or gal who asks tough questions will be tremendous help.

Since Max brought up my blog post I think I should add a wee bit.... about debt. I've worked for different employers who had 180° attitudes about it. One grew the company exclusively on profits. That's great if are single & like ramen or your significant other has a great job & benefits, allowing you to put most of your earnings back into the firm. Another made extensive use of credit for operations and debt financing for capital equipment. That is risky on a good day, and when a previous economic downturn happened the ship was left high & dry.

That sounds pretty easy, simple, and more than a bit Calvinist. The reality isn't that simple. The pay-as-you go firm missed significant opportunities (my estimate is about $2 million over 5-7 years) because their capital equipment wasn't staying current. The firm that used credit started out okay, but in order to get market share they underbid by about 30%. They had shiny new gear and the event planners, festivals and concert promoters took notice so there was work, but they used credit to finance day to day operations while starting out. The owner thought that as long as inbound cash covered outbound payments he could stay afloat indefinitely. He had 3 or 4 bad months in a row and was running out of money, but had contracts for a good summer season. He sold "his" amp racks to a leasing company, trading "equity" for payments but getting a wad of badly needed cash, up front. It was 2000 and the dot-com bust was about to happen, followed by the events of 9/11. The 'tide me over' money included borrowing nearly 7-figures from the in-laws and the sale of more gear to a different leasing company. It ran out before the seasonal money came in, and then the planes hit the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania. Everything in entertainment went to shit for months. This firm was out of business literally overnight. In the end they lost about $3 million. Oh, astute readers will note that I mentioned debt financing on capital equipment... and that "his" amp racks .... "equity"... there was no equity and a bank had collateral interest. The leasing company took their word that the amps were owned outright. That's all I'll say... ;)

Lost opportunity has a cost just a surely as borrowed money is a liability. Business is about balancing those 2 concepts in order to provide a return on equity to the owners of the business.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

Paraline, Versarray, KLA, VRX and DB (T8, T12). More facts of life are cases and storage space for the rigging hardware and speakers. Am I underestimating the storage space needed for the rigs in question? I plan on keeping them in my house.

With a $100K budget, you are only going to get a small venue vertical array. While that might keep some clients happier than a stacked rig and be a step up from your current rig, and in some indoor venues a big improvement if deployed right, such a rig isn't going to be adequate for a 2000+ rock venue of any sort. For the money, a rig like a Nexo Alpha will be able to cover more people with better sound than you can get out of the bottom tier vertical arrays. I think you need to define reasonably precisely what sort of gig you want to be able to cover with your new A-rig and purchase accordingly. Then, when and if the need arises for a big rig, sub in a bigger array.
See the main rig as one element that is often the easiest to sub, and keep focus on the other elements of the sound production, microphones, stage stuff, monitors, mixers and all the bits that make up a good set-up regardless of what is happening to the Main out after it leaves the FOH board. You can obviously spend a hundred grand easily without getting any Mains, Lights, Backline or Staging. Am I making any sense?
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

I did the I worked another job to pay my bills and put all of the sound company money back into equipment. I also spent some of my working another job money on equipment the first year to get started. I had decided from the beginning that I did not want to carry any long term debt so my growth was dictated by the success of my operation. The first year was really slow but I made money the second year and I started taking a decent paycheck the third year. I don't buy anything I don't use and I sell off anything that I don't seem to use anymore if nothing else to eliminate clutter. All the gear has to justify its use for being there either by making money or being what I enjoy working with.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

With a $100K budget, you are only going to get a small venue vertical array. While that might keep some clients happier than a stacked rig and be a step up from your current rig, and in some indoor venues a big improvement if deployed right, such a rig isn't going to be adequate for a 2000+ rock venue of any sort. For the money, a rig like a Nexo Alpha will be able to cover more people with better sound than you can get out of the bottom tier vertical arrays. I think you need to define reasonably precisely what sort of gig you want to be able to cover with your new A-rig and purchase accordingly. Then, when and if the need arises for a big rig, sub in a bigger array.
See the main rig as one element that is often the easiest to sub, and keep focus on the other elements of the sound production, microphones, stage stuff, monitors, mixers and all the bits that make up a good set-up regardless of what is happening to the Main out after it leaves the FOH board. You can obviously spend a hundred grand easily without getting any Mains, Lights, Backline or Staging. Am I making any sense?

Yeah totally. My intent was to steadfastly avoid being pulled in this direction. I am operating like the Calvanist company in the tale of woe told by Tim McCulloch and now the idea of doing the opposite and "going for it" is in my head. I'm pretty thorough most times when making a big decision so I am relying on this process to guide me to a decent result. Unfortunately, you can't really predict any of these trends that shape everything around us.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

If your clients are asking you to scale up, make sure they're not expecting legacy pricing!
I did go over that briefly with my client in the minute we had to discuss plans for the future before tear down started and I just hired someone to handle setting the rates and client relations from now on. I had been trying to keep it as a one man operation, but I have decided to expand. It will make everyone safer especially me!
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

I did the I worked another job to pay my bills and put all of the sound company money back into equipment. I also spent some of my working another job money on equipment the first year to get started. I had decided from the beginning that I did not want to carry any long term debt so my growth was dictated by the success of my operation. The first year was really slow but I made money the second year and I started taking a decent paycheck the third year. I don't buy anything I don't use and I sell off anything that I don't seem to use anymore if nothing else to eliminate clutter. All the gear has to justify its use for being there either by making money or being what I enjoy working with.

It has been great hearing part of your origin story. I think it would make an interesting sticky. I had a similar experience working at a day job in order to justify buying equipment. At first everyone looks at you like you're nuts, but after a while they come around. Long term debt is always an issue especially since we ourselves are not necessarily long term items. My own personal physical health is the biggest factor in how successful I will be able to become over the years. Then there's health insurance for employees and their own personal safety on the job site. Running a sound business is very much a series of near constant challenges (or could be disasters). I keep it in check by reminding myself of what I might be doing if it wasn't for music and live sound.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

Yeah totally. My intent was to steadfastly avoid being pulled in this direction. I am operating like the Calvanist company in the tale of woe told by Tim McCulloch and now the idea of doing the opposite and "going for it" is in my head. I'm pretty thorough most times when making a big decision so I am relying on this process to guide me to a decent result. Unfortunately, you can't really predict any of these trends that shape everything around us.

The real point was "balance." As the late Paul Harvey would say "Page Two..."

The Calvin-esque shop eventually figured out why sales were declining, sold off or wrote off obsolete inventory and borrowed to make up the difference. They got new gear and new shop manager. The original owners sold a few years ago, but I think the company is still in business.

It was observing that experience that provided me with insight in working with my current employer, who had been debt-averse mostly because they viewed interest payments as an expense that brought no benefit other that expedience. When we sat down to look at 7 years worth of income and expenses, events contracted and those that didn't get closed, we were able to see where our offerings were lacking. We saw that judicious application of short term (5 years or less) debt could have opened up important opportunities that we couldn't access without new gear or better ways of doing things. We had to research how much of that business still existed and then estimate what share of it we might get. I can't say our projections were spot on, because some of them were so far out that NASA called us about the unauthorized orbit... but enough of them were sufficiently close to reality that we meet our debt service and remain profitable.

The spendthrift credit cudgel, however, went down not simply because of credit or debt, but the way in which those were wielded, combined with a wildly optimistic business plan. The owner lacked either the accounting knowledge or humility to accept that his plan was not working. Instead, he doubled down on the plan and lost his business, home, and family. And 3 Million Dollars.

And now you know the rest of the story. Good day!

So, Ernest, the trick is knowing when to pull the credit/debt trigger and when to pay for capital upgrades out of operations. That's an analysis only you can do, based on your market and experience in it.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
 
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Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

I am curious to know about your previous history with the Sound business? Was 2012 your first ever year behind the console OR did you spend multi-decades working for a much larger operation and then left to start your own business?


You are correct that DC is a huge market for corporate events and weddings, but at the same time it is one tough market to get into. For the past 2 years that I have been working with the wedding/corporate party band, I have noticed that majority of the repeat events use the same production company over and over. I once had the dream of owning all the gear to covering much larger events, but I for the last 2 years I have been perfectly happy working with the predominant/premier wedding/corporate party band of DC.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

I am curious to know about your previous history with the Sound business? Was 2012 your first ever year behind the console OR did you spend multi-decades working for a much larger operation and then left to start your own business?


You are correct that DC is a huge market for corporate events and weddings, but at the same time it is one tough market to get into. For the past 2 years that I have been working with the wedding/corporate party band, I have noticed that majority of the repeat events use the same production company over and over. I once had the dream of owning all the gear to covering much larger events, but I for the last 2 years I have been perfectly happy working with the predominant/premier wedding/corporate party band of DC.

I was in a band called Jazz Poets Society (1997 to 2001). We recorded a couple CD's, we toured and I got an opportunity to play a lot. Over the years I got to know the music business and learned a lot about sound from a live and studio perspective hands on. I started playing guitar when I was 6 and music has been my main activity ever since. I'm 40 now and I am at the peak of my abilities to do this kind of work physically and mentally. We all need to grow and learn and prepare to deal with the challenges we choose to put in front of ourselves. I had plenty of time to do that and now I am putting my experience to work for me.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

$100K could easily buy a pair of M7's or big analog consoles on the used market plus a very decent line array or you could buy some Old KF850's. The most important thing is that you are able to "sell yourself" as a knowledgeable, capable person.

P.S. -for a small company the profit margin is much better by carefully buying "good" used equipment and taking care of it, I've always bought one piece at a time as I could afford it.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

I know you want to keep a powered system, but honestly the likely hood of that happening is pretty low. For 100 grand you could get a nice used system like this one:

EAW QSC DBX PA System

Which would get you up and running in the 5000 ppl event category. This would be reasonably rider-acceptable too.


The other option is to find a local provider and see what they are using for their bigger events, then buy into that system. If they are using Vertec, then you could buy a 4 per side Vertec rig to use and if you need a bigger system you rent from the other provider. That's how it's typically done at this level.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

This is a very interesting thread. Across the pond (I think our markets are reasonably different), two of the companies I freelance for have found that a huge amount of extra business has come from providing high quality stage packages for touring artists and other events. So they'll provide a couple of desks (whatever is specced from Soundcraft to digico to midas), a line system and stage cabling, distro, IEMs, wedges, and a mics and stands package for a competitive (but definitely not cheap!) rate. The repeat business comes from the quality and ease of use of line system (all VDM multi pin disconnects, all working channels, enough xlr, all labelled according to the acts requirements) and the reliability of the gear (it all gets checked and serviced every time it enters the warehouse, breakages on tour are swapped out etc).

This seems to me to be a pretty cost effective method of building up high profile clients without actually splashing loads of cash on a speaker system that won't meet a rider. It also means less warehouse space, less trucking expense and possibly lower insurance premiums (fewer people to cover, no flying etc).

I understand it isn't very glamorous, but it does mean you can get a steady income stream to cover slowly building a proper A grade rig (d&b, l'acoustics etc).
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

The other option is to find a local provider and see what they are using for their bigger events, then buy into that system. If they are using Vertec, then you could buy a 4 per side Vertec rig to use and if you need a bigger system you rent from the other provider. That's how it's typically done at this level.

Read this several times and then read it again. This is the very best way to do "Big Boy" on a budget and actually own your own gear. The other plus is you can cross rent to them as well.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

I appreciate the feedback and reality checks, reading this thread is slowly making the scope of the challenges I'm looking to overcome more obvious. I don't have the manpower to bring out a passive rig. I already half worked myself to death by using a passive rig short staffed. Making a leap back to that wouldn't be sensible for me. A powered system is a must even if it means renting the majority of it. Lots for me to consider.
 
Re: Seeking to upgrade from a B rig to an A rig

I appreciate the feedback and reality checks, reading this thread is slowly making the scope of the challenges I'm looking to overcome more obvious. I don't have the manpower to bring out a passive rig. I already half worked myself to death by using a passive rig short staffed. Making a leap back to that wouldn't be sensible for me. A powered system is a must even if it means renting the majority of it. Lots for me to consider.

Why is a "passive" rig so much harder or require more people. At least enough to be considered.

I am a bit old fashioned and like amp racks much better. if an amp goes out-I can swap it out during the show. With a powered system that becomes much harder and the speaker is out for the show.

Extra amps can "live" in the amp racks. Extra amps for powered boxes typically live in cardboard boxes waiting to be crushed.

People often use the excuse of not having to run heavy speaker cables-but yet they don't think twice about running heavy power cables. And the difference is ?

Yes there are advantages and disadvantages to each type-but I like to be able to swap gear around easily-while I am on the ground :)