Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

Stuart Høgg

Sophomore
Jan 12, 2011
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Glasgow, Scotland
First time posting in a while but I've been lurking faithfully...

We've got a small rig of 8 x Meyer UPA1c and 6 x USW. It's done us well and the ROI has been good.

However, there have been problems at a couple of recent gigs where the rig has been used for electronic dance music. The highly compressed nature of this seems to "defeat" the limiters on the Meyer controllers. My hunch is that the relatively low crest factor means that there can be very high average power, without the output sounding like mush.

We lost a horn driver at the last gig. The rig had been driven hard, and whilst I hadn't been able to keep a constant eye on it, the times I was around nobody seemed to be doing anything outrageously stupid with it.

What I'm thinking about is setting up some sort of limiter to guard against damage at these sorts of gigs. I happen to have a couple of BSS Soundwebs kicking around, and their architecture allows for multiple limiters and compressors in line, so I could possibly have limiters with slow and fast attack to guard against short and long term overloads. I think I'd put a Soundweb in its own case and only use it as an extra safety measure at electronic gigs, the rest of the time the boxes are doing conferences or bands gigs and we haven't had any issues there.

The challenge, of course, is getting this working without making it sound like crap. Open to advice on how best to achieve this...
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

the best limiter is going to be more rig.

That's true, but these particular gigs aren't great money spinners and repurposing a Soundweb that is sitting on the shelf is a lot more attractive than buying more cabinets. We do try and mitigate problems by giving the DJs a particularly brutal set of "Texas Headphones" to discourage them from pushing the levels too hard out front.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

I would think that the way to do it is to use slow rms limiting with maximum releasetime (half an hour would be fine ;)~;-)~:wink: ).
Setting the treshold quite low, like maybe -3dB compared to rated rms, and let the upas themselves handle peaks.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

Your tech on the show could just turn it down a little.

This particular gig was supposedly a "small dance tent" as a side stage to the main gig we were doing. Turned out that we were playing to an entire hillside of drunken revellers. Meanwhile the "band stage" which had a far more substantial system, was virtually deserted...

The problem with turning it down is that it just encourages the DJs to run their stuff harder. What I want is to be limiting the "peaks" (both short and prolonged peaks in content level) but without the corresponding drop in volume in the quieter sections. I know I'll essentially be squeezing even more dynamic range out of the music, but I don't think anyone will mind.

UPAs aren't exactly the best choice in my opinion for EDM either. Maybe for use as Texas headphones but that's about it.

I'd agree, but there are occasions where they are the only thing left in the shop. They sound quite good for other dance genres, there is a regular club night which has taken a rig for years and haven't ever blown anything, but the music they are playing is more soulful and less intense.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

I would think that the way to do it is to use slow rms limiting with maximum releasetime (half an hour would be fine ;)~;-)~:wink: ).
Setting the treshold quite low, like maybe -3dB compared to rated rms, and let the upas themselves handle peaks.

I would make sure the average power delivered was 6dB lower than the RMS power rating of the driver, to reduce power compressor and extend the longevity of the driver.

Knowing nothing about UPAs other than they weigh too much, I don't know how easy it will be to implement a limiter per-passband. Perhaps the soundweb can do a limiter with a sidechain filter limiting its effectiveness to only the range the HF driver is covering?
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

If it's long term too much gozinta that's burning your drivers I would use something with negative compression like the DBX160X. The more they go past the threshold, the quieter it gets. They get the point real fast. It's OK to explain it to them too. "If you go past a certain point it won't get louder, it will get quieter." I would think you could do this in a soundweb. I'm not sure about that though. Other than that, more compression will just make it more compressed.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

Put the limiters between the DJ and you. Set the threasholds very low. Use the gain on your desk to get the level back up to a reasonable level. They have to stay in a linear range or it pumps them down. If the release is long they will get the point. If peaks are the issue, I didn't get that impression, then look ahead limiting will also help. Several units out there that will do that, and the soundweb can probably do it too even if you have to create the side chain yourself.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

The problem with turning it down is that it just encourages the DJs to run their stuff harder. What I want is to be limiting the "peaks" (both short and prolonged peaks in content level) but without the corresponding drop in volume in the quieter sections. I know I'll essentially be squeezing even more dynamic range out of the music, but I don't think anyone will mind.

Stuart, I do lots of EDM shows with everyone from local beginner DJs to the most popular DJs in the world. There are only a very few of the top DJs that I haven't provided for. Regardless of who I am providing for I give the performer a great set of Texas Headphones that THEY control with the booth output of their mixer. If you don't let them control the monitors then you risk them turning it up. If they have control and you have provided adequate monitors then almost every single DJ these days will send you a clean signal. They really have no idea how loud it is in the mains. Your tech can turn it up or down all he or she wants and you'll be just fine.

Also, DJs these days are much more picky about sound quality than they were just 5 years ago. They hate the music being compressed. The music has a lot more dynamics now and they want it preserved.

Best thing to do is have two stereo pairs coming into your mixer from the DJ mixer. One is the stereo L/R out from the DJ mixer, the other the stereo out from the booth. This way you can easily keep an eye on your input trims of each and EQ each separately as needed. Obviously, route the main L/R to you main stacks and the booth to the monitors. Let the DJ turn up the booth as far as needed as long as he isn't slamming your limiters, you'll be fine.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

Thanks for all the replies.

I haven't got the blown diaphragm apart yet, but will take a close look at it when I do.

Texas headphones from the booth monitor does seem to be effective. The section of the programme that was probably hardest on the UPAs was the DJs yelling down their mic at the crowd, which of course they didn't have turned up in the booth monitor because it would feed back.

I'd agree that DJs are more likely to be discerning about sound quality these days, (certainly "performance" DJs anyway, as opposed to wedding/function DJs with their low bitrate MP3s). I think with the Soundweb ahead of the UPA controller, we might end up trading a bit less dynamic range against having them slammed up against the limiters in the controller. Ideally, with the right limiting, the rig won't need a tech sitting over it scolding the DJs every time they light up a limiter. :razz:
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

First time posting in a while but I've been lurking faithfully...

We've got a small rig of 8 x Meyer UPA1c and 6 x USW. It's done us well and the ROI has been good.

However, there have been problems at a couple of recent gigs where the rig has been used for electronic dance music. The highly compressed nature of this seems to "defeat" the limiters on the Meyer controllers. My hunch is that the relatively low crest factor means that there can be very high average power, without the output sounding like mush.

You haven't mentioned what amps you are using, and if you have the processors wired with the sense lines. The UPA-1C requires a 250w/8Ω amp on the lows and a 60w/8Ω amp on the highs, with the gain set higher than 20dB, but lower than 30dB.

Mac
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

You haven't mentioned what amps you are using, and if you have the processors wired with the sense lines. The UPA-1C requires a 250w/8Ω amp on the lows and a 60w/8Ω amp on the highs, with the gain set higher than 20dB, but lower than 30dB.

Mac

And they're doing EDM with that!?!?!

Last EDM show I did used about 25,000 watts for about 300 people. They used all of it.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

And they're doing EDM with that!?!?!

Last EDM show I did used about 25,000 watts for about 300 people. They used all of it.

They will use all you got no matter how many people are there. I usually use around 70,000 - 80,000 watts of amp power these days for most EDM shows from about 400 people to about 4,000 people. It's all about headroom. I try to keep 6-12 dB of headroom and tickle the limiters only on the loudest peaks. UPA-1Cs will not have enough headroom for the genre.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

I would think that the way to do it is to use slow rms limiting with maximum releasetime (half an hour would be fine ;)~;-)~:wink: ).
Setting the treshold quite low, like maybe -3dB compared to rated rms, and let the upas themselves handle peaks.

Sorry, I misunderstood what I was replying to earlier. Was thinking UPA-1P, they might be limited a bit earlier than what the controller for the 1c does.
 
Re: Setting up a standalone limiter for Meyer UPAs

Per the main problem with the unpowered UPAs is the fairly slow attac time on the limiters also the drivers in these ones are all getting old now so ping they go sometimes with no warning at all hopefully that's the last of them now and we'll try and be more careful with them won't we Stuart??? :))