Si Expression

[Steve Garrick]

Has anyone had a problem with the new Soundcraft Expression, my Expression Si3 has been returned to the dealer after freezing 4 times while trying to sound check a band on it's very first outing,very embarassing,when i phoned the dealer he said oh not another one!~:-(~:sad:

 

[Anton Foresta]

Re: Si Expression

wow, i just got my expression 3 today. it immediately started freezing. i went to the website and saw a software update for version 1 build 4. I followed all the instructions and updated the console only to have it freeze faster then before. starting to think i should have bought the behringer.

 

[Anton Foresta]

Re: Si Expression

Ok got it!! i redid the software update the correct way by formatting my sd card first, the thing is running like a champ!!!

 

[Steve Garrick]

Re: Si Expression

Ok got it!! i redid the software update the correct way by formatting my sd card first, the thing is running like a champ!!!

Thanks for the reply Anton, still dubious about the desk why would Soundcraft release a brand new product that needs updating with software even before it came out of the box! i will wait a while to see if the desk remains reliable before purchasing one again! meanwhile back to the safer old analogue desk.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Si Expression

Thanks for the reply Anton, still dubious about the desk why would Soundcraft release a brand new product that needs updating with software even before it came out of the box! i will wait a while to see if the desk remains reliable before purchasing one again! meanwhile back to the safer old analogue desk.

One theory might be that an awful lot of software QA and development work can occur in the amount of time it takes a container to cross the Pacific (or the Atlantic, for that matter)...

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Si Expression

One theory bight be that an awful lot of software QA and development work can occur in the amount of time it takes a container to cross the Pacific (or the Atlantic, for that matter)...

On the other hand, it doesn't take much validation effort to realize you have a lockup that is so reproduceable.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Si Expression

On the other hand, it doesn't take much validation effort to realize you have a lockup that is so reproduceable.

Is the fix mentioned by Steve Garrick reproducible as well?

Behringer has had how many firmware updates? And the first one was posted about the time the X32 was in the hands of buyers... I'd have expected a better shake-down of Expression firmware, but SC stepped up and is taking care of the problems.

Soundcraft has been very responsive to dealers and buyers, but understand that Harman policy generally does not allow employees to represent their brands in forums such as these. You probably won't see Tom Der posting in the manner of Uli. You may have noticed that it takes a lot to get Kevin Gring to weigh in on a Crown thread. Harman doesn't understand the warm fuzzy feelings we get from honest (or apparently honest) manufacturer participation.

I could understand your displeasure if Soundcraft was ignoring problems or not corresponding with buyers regarding failures. They've stepped up, what more is there? I sat back and watched the complaints about the X32 come in and saw Behringer address them. They were doing what needed to be done and began polishing a tarnished reputation. Most of the folks that expressed "outrage" over the X32 problems were new users, not experienced folks that understand v1.0 (of almost any product) will arrive with some issues to be sorted.

In this discussion, though, I have no dog. We're still clinging to our legacy Yamaha and VENUE series mixers.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Si Expression

Is the fix mentioned by Steve Garrick reproducible as well?

Behringer has had how many firmware updates? And the first one was posted about the time the X32 was in the hands of buyers... I'd have expected a better shake-down of Expression firmware, but SC stepped up and is taking care of the problems.

Soundcraft has been very responsive to dealers and buyers, but understand that Harman policy generally does not allow employees to represent their brands in forums such as these. You probably won't see Tom Der posting in the manner of Uli. You may have noticed that it takes a lot to get Kevin Gring to weigh in on a Crown thread. Harman doesn't understand the warm fuzzy feelings we get from honest (or apparently honest) manufacturer participation.

I could understand your displeasure if Soundcraft was ignoring problems or not corresponding with buyers regarding failures. They've stepped up, what more is there? I sat back and watched the complaints about the X32 come in and saw Behringer address them. They were doing what needed to be done and began polishing a tarnished reputation. Most of the folks that expressed "outrage" over the X32 problems were new users, not experienced folks that understand v1.0 (of almost any product) will arrive with some issues to be sorted.

In this discussion, though, I have no dog. We're still clinging to our legacy Yamaha and VENUE series mixers.

Fair enough.

I have no dog in the race either. In fact, about 6 months ago, I would have laughed at the idea of me purchasing something (anything) from Behringer with a 4 digit dollar figure.

I have found the prejudice in myself and tried to moderate it. I have just found it interesting how much reputation plays into how we feel about a new product.

To your point, Behringer has done well by attacking the forums with experts and executives. It has raised the bar for support. It is much more difficult to ignore an army of expert users on a forum than it is to ignore an e-mail or off-shore support phone call.

I know that I became a life-long supporter of VHT amplification (now Frette amplification) when Steve Frette (owner of the company) called me on a Saturday afternoon to walk me through biasing my amp with new tubes so I could gig that night with the amp.

The personal touch does go a long way to garnering trust.... at least it does in my case.

Perhaps the SI expression will be a solid product after a few firmware revisions. I certainly hope so. I am big on good competition in any market. I believe that it always gives the consumer more, and better, for less money as well as stimulating innovation.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Si Expression

I was on the fence between a Behringer and the Expression boards until I read many threads of boards locking, even with the current firmware installed. A product that is not yet stable shouldn't have been released until it was actually ready. Minor bugs I guess could be understandable, but something that takes the whole console down regularly? No, that product shouldn't be out.

 

[Anton Foresta]

Re: Si Expression

I was on the fence between a Behringer and the Expression boards until I read many threads of boards locking, even with the current firmware installed. A product that is not yet stable shouldn't have been released until it was actually ready. Minor bugs I guess could be understandable, but something that takes the whole console down regularly? No, that product shouldn't be out.

Ok had the console running with version 1 build 4 for 2 days now. I did two full days on the console for 8 plus hours a day, running up to 28 inputs and 8 outputs, using multiple graphics, comps gates etc, while running the ViSi app on my iPad, and continually saving snapshots and show files to the internal sd card and my external jump drive. and the console NEVER slowed down. Im impressed now. Ive used the Behringer 2 times, and i must say the soundcraft sounds like a soundcraft. Its sounds great for the price range. The EQ sections is nice as well as the graphic EQs, gates and comps are decent, lexicon efx sound just like the lexicon efx there modeled after. My only complaint is some flimsy feeling encoders. Ive used every console from a Digico SD7 to a flying fader XL4. Thats my review ~:-D~:grin:

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Si Expression

I was on the fence between a Behringer and the Expression boards until I read many threads of boards locking, even with the current firmware installed. A product that is not yet stable shouldn't have been released until it was actually ready. Minor bugs I guess could be understandable, but something that takes the whole console down regularly? No, that product shouldn't be out.

When we bought a Yamaha M3000 (yeah, I know....) I spent a bit of time playing with the mute groups. I found a keystroke combination that would lock up the mute automation AND the manual channel mutes. Our local Yammy tech came over, reproduced the event and went back to his shop to call Yamaha. Eventually he came back to swap out an EEPROM and the problem went away.

That was a long time ago and I don't remember what I did to make it lock up, but it was something that Yamaha never anticipated or expected. Ours was the only report (at the time, anyway) of the bug. I don't know what Yamaha did to other units, but the M3000 design had some other issues, too, and they took care of them even after the official warranty expired.

I'm not pimping for Yamaha (although we've had very good experiences with their digital mixers and received superior support for their analog desks) and not suggesting that Steve would be happier with them, but pointing out, again, that every manufacturer sends stuff out the door when a delay would have been better for the out of box experience of purchasers. Also, if I understand the Expression bug, it's a keystroke combination that locks up the desk... and it appears that this combination is something that Soundcraft should have anticipated... so no donuts for them... but why are we being harder on Soundcraft than we were with other premium brands that had issues at launch time?

 

[Randy Wilkins]

I originally had the same problem on Thursday. Upgraded the firmware right out of the box and formatted the SD card. The problem didn't show up until I tried to save a show. I blew an hour and a half trying to figure out what was going on. I powered the board all the way down and unplugged the power. Things speeded back up. I then reapplied the upgrade and formatted the SD card again and all is well. Went through our church service this morning using everything I needed with no slowdowns. Great crisp sound.

I do agree anything software based usually goes out of the door with some sort of bugs. It all depends how the manufacturer handles them.

Randy Wilkins

Sent from my SCH-I605 2

 

[Jonathan Goodall]

Re: Si Expression

I have had a chance to play with a new-out-of-the-box Si Expression 2 this past week as well. First time ever touching or playing with a digital desk. Soundcraft NZ had already updated the firmware to V1 build 4 before sending out the desk (good on them) but I also had the lock-up issue when selecting layer B. A quick email to SC and the local tech support contacted me and provided some suggestions as to a fix (including swapping out the desk if the suggested fixes did not work). After reformatting the SD card, all appears to be good now.

Although being a complete digital virgin, I have found the desk pretty easy to get around and I love the "sends on faders" and having recall (I do a lot of theatre stuff so this would be wonderful). I am almost tempted to get the Si Exp 1 to replace an almost stuffed back-up mixer.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Si Expression

I have had a chance to play with a new-out-of-the-box Si Expression 2 this past week as well. First time ever touching or playing with a digital desk. Soundcraft NZ had already updated the firmware to V1 build 4 before sending out the desk (good on them) but I also had the lock-up issue when selecting layer B. A quick email to SC and the local tech support contacted me and provided some suggestions as to a fix (including swapping out the desk if the suggested fixes did not work). After reformatting the SD card, all appears to be good now.

Although being a complete digital virgin, I have found the desk pretty easy to get around and I love the "sends on faders" and having recall (I do a lot of theatre stuff so this would be wonderful). I am almost tempted to get the Si Exp 1 to replace an almost stuffed back-up mixer.

Yea, the Si Expression, like the StudioLive, maintains a more analog layout. I think that most of us who are used to analog mixers and rack gear would easily be able to handle this mixer in no time at all.

Does anyone know if the gain's are recallable?

 

[Steve Garrick]

Re: Si Expression

Thanks for the reply but call me old fashioned but i do expect the product to work even with "old" software,if i bought a new car and after 10mls it stopped only to be told i would need a software update to make it travel another ten miles,i would not be pleased,surely the same principles apply,however i do have faith in Soundcraft and i am sure they will deal with the problem,having used there products reliably for years.

 

[Geri O'Neil]

Re: Si Expression

Does anyone know if the gain's are recallable?

They are on the Si Compact 32. I would imagine that to be the case with the Expression.

Geri O

 

[Tom Pullin]

Re: Si Expression

Has anyone had a problem with the new Soundcraft Expression, my Expression Si3 has been returned to the dealer after freezing 4 times while trying to sound check a band on it's very first outing,very embarassing,when i phoned the dealer he said oh not another one!~:-(~:sad:

I just installed one this weekend. It is locked when we saved settings on thumb drive. It is still locked up.

 

[Nick Amento]

Re: Si Expression

Hello,

I received my Expression Si 3 a few days ago. For over a month I was on the fence over the Expression 3 or X32. For various reasons I choose the Expression 3.

I am wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience I had with mine initially.

After 30 minutes of use it was locking up/hanging constantly. Weeks of looking forward for this board and now I'm questioning if this was a mistake it was this model or B. I was super excited SC decided to enter this price point.

First thing I did was format the SD card and update to 1.0 Build 0004 software. When I hit 'Format SD card' it displayed 'updating' for a few seconds and then I rebooted the console (would be nice to have a reboot option in your update menus, vs. holding down power key). I booted it again and applied the 1.0v 0004 update, waited for the 2 tick marks, everything worked fine. Rebooted again and started playing around with the desk. Decided to save a 'show' to the internal storage. Took longer then I thought for it to save, but it did save. I was a bit disappointed that console control functions are locked out while saving & disk I/O functions. Makes me not want to save a show while live if that is intended behavior. After about 3 minutes I decided to save the same show again over the top one. I ack'ed the "are you sure you want to overwrite" with yes. 5-6 minutes later board is still spinning saying 'saving'. Finally I rebooted the console, it froze on the "soundcraft" screen. Super. Went into boot ment and formatted internal SD storage. rebooted, same behavior. Rebooted again and re-updated the firmware with 1.0v 0004. System booted, but took about 6 minutes. Now whenever I do anything scene or show based the console hangs for moments and a little yellow warning icon appears in the upper right hand side of the screen. The system log is filling with "Error writing new snapshot to file (Error code 12) & "Error auto-saving cue data snapshot (Error code 16). Since the board is auto saving, I cannot use this for a live mix since it hangs for 30-45 seconds randomly now. It's unfortunate, I had such great expectations for this series now that it was finally in my price range.

At this point everything pointed to the SD card - so I opened the console and reseated the SD card (I do not recommend this unless you are comfortable with what you are doing) It was loose and only retained in the surface mount SD holder by a piece of tape. Before closing it up I put it in the most convenient computer for good measure - happened to be a macbook pro with SD card slot. Interestingly enough the original file was on there even after formatting it a number of times using the boot menu formater on the Expression - it didn't format it. This could be due to the SD card coming loose. I reformatted it on the mac just incase, I didn't feel like removing 30 something odd screws again. From shell on OSX using - newfs_msdos -F 16 /dev/disk1s1 so it is FAT16 and reinstalled it. I replaced the factory tape holding the card into the socket with stronger tape. It appears the tape is the only thing holding the card into the socket, it is quite loose! I'm up and running now, hopefully that sorted it. I am wondering though if this breaks on me again - if I insert a USB stick in the console does it override the internal SD card? or will the internal SD card still be used for saving checkpoints? What if I just removed the SD card altogether?


Here is a pic of the factory tape holding the SD card in. It is very loose in the holder. I'm wondering if I 'padded' the card out a bit with more tiny pices of gaff if it will help stay in the socket more firmly, or if this will be addressed in another hardware rev - http://digivill.net/~binary/pix/bucket/expresson32-sd-card.jpg

So I'm wondering has anyone else had this issue? Could this be a design issue? I'm not recommending people open their consoles to check, but a piece of gaff sorted my issue. (for now).

-nick

 

[Geri O'Neil]

Re: Si Expression

Wow, I knew they were calling the internal memory the "SD card", but I did not think it was an actual SD card??

I'm not sure what I think about that. After the last couple of shows (shows small enough so that the Si was appropriate), I was pretty frustrated with it...until I realized I was asking it to do things I can do with consoles 4 to 8 times as expensive. Once I tempered my frustrations, I'm back to liking it well enough. I just hope this "internal SD Card" doesn't turn into an issue down the road.

Geri O

PS - I gotta say, our Si Compact has worked flawlessly from day 1. No experience with the Expression.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Si Expression

Hello,

I received my Expression Si 3 a few days ago. For over a month I was on the fence over the Expression 3 or X32. For various reasons I choose the Expression 3.

I am wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience I had with mine initially.

After 30 minutes of use it was locking up/hanging constantly. Weeks of looking forward for this board and now I'm questioning if this was a mistake it was this model or B. I was super excited SC decided to enter this price point.

First thing I did was format the SD card and update to 1.0 Build 0004 software. When I hit 'Format SD card' it displayed 'updating' for a few seconds and then I rebooted the console (would be nice to have a reboot option in your update menus, vs. holding down power key). I booted it again and applied the 1.0v 0004 update, waited for the 2 tick marks, everything worked fine. Rebooted again and started playing around with the desk. Decided to save a 'show' to the internal storage. Took longer then I thought for it to save, but it did save. I was a bit disappointed that console control functions are locked out while saving & disk I/O functions. Makes me not want to save a show while live if that is intended behavior. After about 3 minutes I decided to save the same show again over the top one. I ack'ed the "are you sure you want to overwrite" with yes. 5-6 minutes later board is still spinning saying 'saving'. Finally I rebooted the console, it froze on the "soundcraft" screen. Super. Went into boot ment and formatted internal SD storage. rebooted, same behavior. Rebooted again and re-updated the firmware with 1.0v 0004. System booted, but took about 6 minutes. Now whenever I do anything scene or show based the console hangs for moments and a little yellow warning icon appears in the upper right hand side of the screen. The system log is filling with "Error writing new snapshot to file (Error code 12) & "Error auto-saving cue data snapshot (Error code 16). Since the board is auto saving, I cannot use this for a live mix since it hangs for 30-45 seconds randomly now. It's unfortunate, I had such great expectations for this series now that it was finally in my price range.

At this point everything pointed to the SD card - so I opened the console and reseated the SD card (I do not recommend this unless you are comfortable with what you are doing) It was loose and only retained in the surface mount SD holder by a piece of tape. Before closing it up I put it in the most convenient computer for good measure - happened to be a macbook pro with SD card slot. Interestingly enough the original file was on there even after formatting it a number of times using the boot menu formater on the Expression - it didn't format it. This could be due to the SD card coming loose. I reformatted it on the mac just incase, I didn't feel like removing 30 something odd screws again. From shell on OSX using - newfs_msdos -F 16 /dev/disk1s1 so it is FAT16 and reinstalled it. I replaced the factory tape holding the card into the socket with stronger tape. It appears the tape is the only thing holding the card into the socket, it is quite loose! I'm up and running now, hopefully that sorted it. I am wondering though if this breaks on me again - if I insert a USB stick in the console does it override the internal SD card? or will the internal SD card still be used for saving checkpoints? What if I just removed the SD card altogether?


Here is a pic of the factory tape holding the SD card in. It is very loose in the holder. I'm wondering if I 'padded' the card out a bit with more tiny pices of gaff if it will help stay in the socket more firmly, or if this will be addressed in another hardware rev - http://digivill.net/~binary/pix/bucket/expresson32-sd-card.jpg

So I'm wondering has anyone else had this issue? Could this be a design issue? I'm not recommending people open their consoles to check, but a piece of gaff sorted my issue. (for now).

-nick

Mr Binary - either you have the perfect name to talk about digital consoles, or you are in violation of this forum's real name policy. Please change your name to be your full real name.