Sigh

J

Jack Arnott

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Jan 29, 2011
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So I don't go out much to hear bands. But I did last week to hear some ska friends from decades past.

"Sounds good"

"Thanks"

"Cam I make one request?"

"Sure"

"Can you turn up the lead vocal?"

"I get that a lot."

I'm sure you do. And I did not get any my lead vocal love.
 
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Too bad. I always make it a point, even if the mix is only decent, to stop by FOH at any show I happen to be at or by and tell the engineer he's doing great. I always appreciated that when I was mixing regularly, and passing it on is the least I can do.
 
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Bennett Prescott said:
Too bad. I always make it a point, even if the mix is only decent, to stop by FOH at any show I happen to be at or by and tell the engineer he's doing great. I always appreciated that when I was mixing regularly, and passing it on is the least I can do.
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+1

After all, who knows what kind of shit he's been given all day...
 
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Bennett Prescott said:
Too bad. I always make it a point, even if the mix is only decent, to stop by FOH at any show I happen to be at or by and tell the engineer he's doing great. I always appreciated that when I was mixing regularly, and passing it on is the least I can do.
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I have done that-but only on shows that i felt the mix was pretty good-along with the level for the show and so forth.

I then tell them that did regional production for almost 25yrs and understand the issues involved-so it gives a little bit more "credibility" to the compliment.
 
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Chris Nixon said:
Maybe, maybe not. I had a backing vocal on stage once who was quieter into his vocal mic than the acoustic guitar being played by the guy beside him. :uhoh: Making the rest of the band really hollow and "ambient" sounding wasn't worth it.

Chris
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If anybody on stage wants to be heard-they need to WANT to be heard. Yes sometimes this is an issue for people with physical disabilities.

I hate it when somebody whispers into a mic (and then doesn't get up close on it) and then says "turn me up" and you do-and they whisper quieter.

OBVIOUSLY they do not want to be hear.
 
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Ivan Beaver said:
I hate it when somebody whispers into a mic (and then doesn't get up close on it) and then says "turn me up" and you do-and they whisper quieter.
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Sometimes it is monitor fright, turning them down in the monitors might help. Sometimes they will not be comfortable without some compression/limiting in the monitor, but going down that route obviously has some pitfalls.
 
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Per Søvik said:
Sometimes it is monitor fright, turning them down in the monitors might help. Sometimes they will not be comfortable without some compression/limiting in the monitor, but going down that route obviously has some pitfalls.
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When doing "talent shows" or working with people who do not aware of monitors-I always turn them off (monitors). If the person know what they are for I will turn them up, but you are correct-many people hear the monitors and are afraid they are to loud out in the room.

ANd then others STILL get quiet when the hear the room "coming back to them".

So simply "turn them up-but don't make it loud enough to be heard" YEAH RIGHT!
 
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Ivan Beaver said:
When doing "talent shows" or working with people who do not aware of monitors-I always turn them off (monitors). If the person know what they are for I will turn them up, but you are correct-many people hear the monitors and are afraid they are to loud out in the room.

ANd then others STILL get quiet when the hear the room "coming back to them".
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And some of these are 7 figure corporate execs who absolutely MUST be heard, take instruction on mic use from you beforehand and then go "deer in the headlights" on you with the mic held down by their belt buckle a la your location news reporters on TV.
 
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Jack Arnott said:
"I get that a lot."
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A lot of you are projecting your worst times onto this scenario, and it does not fit.

From my perspective. The system sounded fine, there were only a couple of mics.
The volume of the next singer was fine. I could hear the vocalist in question between songs, he sang just slightly quiet.
All that needed to be done was turn him up.

But it seemed to me that the system had been set up by whoever installed the system.
"And this is how the vocal channel is set". And that was that. So lots of complaints when he failed to "mix" the band.
You know, actually push a fader.

So the inevitable, "I get that a lot".

How many of you when told the vocal is too quiet have ever said,
"I get that a lot"?
 
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Max Warasila said:
+1

After all, who knows what kind of shit he's been given all day...
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Given that the show was supposed to start at 9:30, and he showed up at 9:45, and only turned on the mics, I'm guessing that any shit he had been given "all day" had nothing to do with the gig at hand.
I know for a fact that no sit was given there, as I witnessed both the "sound check", which meant checking to see that the mics were on, and the show.
 
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Chris Nixon said:
Maybe, maybe not. I had a backing vocal on stage once who was quieter into his vocal mic than the acoustic guitar being played by the guy beside him. :uhoh: Making the rest of the band really hollow and "ambient" sounding wasn't worth it.

Chris
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I believe that there is one maxim to live sound, and that is the lead vocal is the SINGLE most important thing.
So by that definition, if killing the rest of the mix to make sure this is accomplished is what it takes, than that is what is done.

A backing vocal is not mentioned in the OP, nor does it meet my requirement.

How many people are going to dog the sound man for that? That would be ridiculous.
 
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Ivan Beaver said:
When doing "talent shows" or working with people who do not aware of monitors-I always turn them off.....
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This was not a talent show. This was a band of seasoned (Read: decades of experience) musicians.

The vocal fader needed to be moved 4 db.

The sound man would not, or was afraid to do this.
 
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Jack Arnott said:
Given that the show was supposed to start at 9:30, and he showed up at 9:45, and only turned on the mics, I'm guessing that any shit he had been given "all day" had nothing to do with the gig at hand.
I know for a fact that no sit was given there, as I witnessed both the "sound check", which meant checking to see that the mics were on, and the show.
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I just mean for your stereotypical house tech, not for your case in particular. I know that a lot of bands are unprofessional, abusive, and/or plain stupid. Not all of them, but many of them. Hopefully they improve.

In terms of your case in particular, he shouldn't get any advice. IMO, he should just be fired, unless he has a damned good reason for being that late. Not my place though, and neither is it yours. If the venue has any true thought to their sound guy, they'll take care of him for sure.
 
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What's the big deal? Its live music. The moment happens and then is gone.

I can think of about a 100 compromises the mixer may have had to made that would have left him with the vocals lower than optimal.

If he is the one hired to make those decisions, he should be allowed to, without having to justify the whole thought process to anyone who wanders up out of the crowd.

Saturday night I had an older band of experienced stage musicians. I wasn't getting much from the vocals at the keyboards but the channel was fine during sound check. During the second song he had a significant part in I walked to the stage to see if I could spot the problem. Up close it wasn't hard to see. He was 6 inches off the mic and was signing down instead of towards the mic because he was looking at the keyboard.

Without knowing what the vocal to wash ratio was in the channel, there is no way of knowing if just pushing up the fader would have helped.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
 
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Max Warasila said:
unless he has a damned good reason for being that late. Not my place though, and neither is it yours.
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He timing did not seem to be an issue with anyone.
Seemed to be right when he was expected.

The only thing that is my place, is that when I pay money to hear a band, I expect to hear the lead vocal.

Granted, I only paid $5 to get in, and it could be argued that I got my utility of that $5 in seeing a lot of old friends before the show, if not my entertainment $5 for not being able to hear the singer.

I am now amused by the fact that a lot of the commenters here are taking the side of the sound man, just on knee jerk reactions to experiences they have had with bands, and just because, well this is a sound place, we don't bag on the sound guys.

Originally I was just amused by the line, "I get that a lot".
 
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Jay Barracato said:
there is no way of knowing if just pushing up the fader would have helped.
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That was not my first rodeo. I am (in my own mind at least) competent enough to know that I could have pushed that fader 4db.
I know all 100 compromises. Trying to push the fader was not on the list of things tried.

Again, I am amused that you will automatically vilify the band/club/system/me anything but the soundman.

How about if I called him, "the person who was designated to turn on the wireless mic, and unmute the channels on the board"?
Would you then find the response, "I get that a lot", amusing?
 
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I am now reminded of two anecdotes.

1) Very cheap promoter at the local U brings in Arturo Sandaval. The deal I end up with is that I provide the system, and the monitor tech, and he provides the house tech.
Mid way through the show, the monitor guy goes out front. Things are not too good. He suggests that the person turn up the star. The "techs" reply: "Lloyd isn't paying me, so I'm not touching the board".

2) Went to see a band from Bozeman about 10 years ago, at a club in nearby Park City. Small club, typical system. Nothing great, but perfectly fine for the situation.
Things were going quite smoothly, and I was enjoying the show. I am standing right behind the sound man, because that was the most likely spot for someone who didn't want to dance, but wasn't with a group of people sitting at a table together. Another patron is chatting wit the sound man. Just friendly chatter that I can hear, but is not distracting.

Then, female vocal number 2 sings a song that is slightly below her range. The chatter comments on how he can't hear her as well on this song. The sound man says, "yeah, it's like this every night". They continue to chat about this phenomenon, for the entirely of the song. Without any steps being taken to fix it in the mix. I wanted to ring their heads together and exclaim, "If only there were some way to adjust this, and if there were someone designated to do this task!"
 
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Jack Arnott said:
That was not my first rodeo. I am (in my own mind at least) competent enough to know that I could have pushed that fader 4db.
I know all 100 compromises. Trying to push the fader was not on the list of things tried.

Again, I am amused that you will automatically vilify the band/club/system anything but the soundman.

How about if I called him, "the person who was designated to turn on the wireless mic, and unmute the channels on the board"?
Would you then find the response, "I get that a lot", amusing?
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I didn't vilify anyone. If anyone, you did. All I am pointing out is that you automatically assumed you know an easy solution without knowing anything about what led the other person to that position.

I have found that 99 out of 100 "helpful suggestions" from the crowd are simply to make the people feel like they are somehow participating and not in anyway meaningful to what I am trying to do. At this point, I am not very receptive to advise from anyone. All that trying to respond to requests does is break the rhythm of what I am doing. For I long time I had a hard time listening to other people mix because I was overly focused on what I would do differently. It sucked the fun out of live music for me, despite the fact that is why I do this in the first place. Sometimes it is necessary to put the tech hat away when you go to a show as a spectator.

You can always suggest the band hire you in the future
 
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