Sigh

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Sigh

I am now reminded of two anecdotes.

1) Very cheap promoter at the local U brings in Arturo Sandaval. The deal I end up with is that I provide the system, and the monitor tech, and he provides the house tech.
Mid way through the show, the monitor guy goes out front. Things are not too good. He suggests that the person turn up the star. The "techs" reply: "Lloyd isn't paying me, so I'm not touching the board".

2) Went to see a band from Bozeman about 10 years ago, at a club in nearby Park City. Small club, typical system. Nothing great, but perfectly fine for the situation.
Things were going quite smoothly, and I was enjoying the show. I am standing right behind the sound man, because that was the most likely spot for someone who didn't want to dance, but wasn't with a group of people sitting at a table together. Another patron is chatting wit the sound man. Just friendly chatter that I can hear, but is not distracting.

Then, female vocal number 2 sings a song that is slightly below her range. The chatter comments on how he can't hear her as well on this song. The sound man says, "yeah, it's like this every night". They continue to chat about this phenomenon, for the entirely of the song. Without any steps being taken to fix it in the mix. I wanted to ring their heads together and exclaim, "If only there were some way to adjust this, and if there were someone designated to do this task!"

All your stories do is prove my point. I am past letting someone else's ability or lack of ability spoil what I am feeling. Now I can enjoy a mix or acoustics that aren't perfect, and if it is truly painful, I can always leave.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

I have found that 99 out of 100 "helpful suggestions" from the crowd are simply to make the people feel like they are somehow participating and not in anyway meaningful to what I am trying to do. At this point, I am not very receptive to advise from anyone. All that trying to respond to requests does is break the rhythm of what I am doing.

OK, lets look at this from a different perspective. Out of these 100 times that you get "helpful suggestions" from the crowd, how many times have you said, "I get that a lot".
Can't you see any humor here at all? Or has the business sucked all the joy out for you, and you are too jaded to care?

[You can always suggest the band hire you in the future]

Odd that no one has mentioned money here. It seems obvious to me that this is not a sound person, but a budget that leads to someone who can unmute channels, and that is it.
It seems that he has been warned not to turn anything up, as that leads to feedback. So is sticking with the "factory presets".

And yes, it was an easy solution. You are the one making all kinds of wild assumptions.
From the beginning of the set to the end, no changes were made on the vocal channel. (Beginning of the night till the end. The next set was fine, as the singer was slightly louder.)
I was there, you were not. I could have rocked that in seconds.

Also, I find that at least 50% of suggestions are helpful. I just need to know how to filter them.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

All your stories do is prove my point. I am past letting someone else's ability or lack of ability spoil what I am feeling. Now I can enjoy a mix or acoustics that aren't perfect, and if it is truly painful, I can always leave.

I am quite audience tolerant. In fact I stated right up front that overall the sound was good.
If you don't find the sound man standing at the board making comments on the poor (vocal) mix, and doing nothing to fix it funny, then you are way too sound man sensitive.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Sigh

I have found that 99 out of 100 "helpful suggestions" from the crowd are simply to make the people feel like they are somehow participating and not in anyway meaningful to what I am trying to do. At this point, I am not very receptive to advise from anyone. All that trying to respond to requests does is break the rhythm of what I am doing. For I long time I had a hard time listening to other people mix because I was overly focused on what I would do differently. It sucked the fun out of live music for me, despite the fact that is why I do this in the first place. Sometimes it is necessary to put the tech hat away when you go to a show as a spectator.

You can always suggest the band hire you in the future

'Helpful' suggestions from crowd usually do not come from The Qualified Soundpersons Club, of which Jack IS a member.

I left a show last night because the audio sucked. Not some picky little "suck" but full blown Sucks Out Loud. And VERY FUCKIN' LOUD AT THAT. When I pay my $$ for a show, I expect to be able to hear all the parts that appear to be played or sung, and I expect that the lead vocal will be audible without being 20dB over the music. Those are pretty easy targets to hit, but the others that were giving their "walking ovation" at the same time as me seem to agree that the mixerperson missed the mark by a country mile or 3.

I don't think Jack's comments or observations are out of line.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

but the others that were giving their "walking ovation"

"At least walk out backwards so we can pretend you are just getting here"
Marleys Ghost

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Sigh

I have a great sense of humor and a bunch of "likes" to prove it, but I really don't see any humor in either of those situations.

Honestly, I just see an attempt to build ones ego up by putting others down.

We are all aware of the lack of skill at the bottom levrl of this industry. I no longer take any pride in comparing myself to them.

In either case did you ask WHY the vocals were buried or identify yourself as a tech and offer possible solutions?

I myself had a show scheduled for an outdoor theater that at the last minute got moved into a tent due to rain. The seating area was only about 10 rows deep. Because with no soundcheck I was working on other things first, it took almost to intermission to realize the speakers didn't cover the first rows at all. Several people complained the vocals weren't loud enough, but the correct solution to turn the vocals up, but to tilt the speakers down.

You could stand next to the booth I mix in every weekend and wonder why I am not fixing the problems you think you hear. The answer is that I already know that fixing those problems for the 50 people in the back pool room screws things up for for the 500 on the dance floor.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[Ernest Graham]

Re: Sigh

When doing "talent shows" or working with people who do not aware of monitors-I always turn them off (monitors). If the person know what they are for I will turn them up, but you are correct-many people hear the monitors and are afraid they are to loud out in the room.

ANd then others STILL get quiet when the hear the room "coming back to them".

So simply "turn them up-but don't make it loud enough to be heard" YEAH RIGHT!

I remember growing up and having difficulty adjusting to the reality of performing on stage. Its not easy to perform on stage with monitors if your training consisted of private lessons and classroom work. My first time on a stage I was 12 and it was a jazz concert at the JCC in northern VA where I was invited on stage to perform for my birthday by the band. Hearing the loudness of my guitar reverberating in the room for the first time made me second guess my playing, so I played without confidence. I'm pretty sure the monitors were off, but it was so long ago and I was so nervous I'm not sure. There's not much a soundman could have done to help in a situation like mine. Anywhere where the people on stage are not professional performers things get a little bit tricky. I mixed a private karaoke party one time and the phenomenon of whispering into the mic during the verse (where one person is expected to be carrying the melody as a soloist) and then blaring loud chorus parts (when everyone on stage knows the words and joins in) was impossible to deal with. Either I ride the faders (and inevitably get it wrong sometimes) or I let them suffer quietly through the verse and allow their own change in volume to bring up the chorus. When I tried to correct for the improper mic technique and the wild swings in dynamics between verse and chorus it seemed as if they noticed and tried even harder to arbitrarily change dynamics for no reason at all. It kept me on my toes and I enjoy a challenge, but it was tedious, and I had a nerve wracking day that day mixing amateur musicians. Bar bands are a joy by comparison and working for professionals is a real treat (especially when I have enough time for a good soundcheck).

 

[drew gandy]

Re: Sigh

I hear what you're saying, Jack, and I'm thinking about using that line the next time I get a comment from the crowd
Here's my more common scenario:

Patron: This band sucks!
Sound dude: I get that a lot.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

We are all aware of the lack of skill at the bottom levrl of this industry. I no longer take any pride in comparing myself to them.

In either case did you ask WHY the vocals were buried or identify yourself as a tech and offer possible solutions?

In the Arturo case, the monitor guy reached over, and slid up the star channel, and went back to his board. Problem solved.
In the "its like this every night", it would have taken a conversation of philosophical differences, which we had neither the time, nor me the inclination for.
He was of the opinion that he had the board set right, and that she just needed to "sing right".
I am of the opinion that one must follow these things, and make adjustments as needed.

In the OP case, I thought I made myself clear. I requested more vocals, got a funny answer, and no solution. (And to be clear, the solution was (in this case) a very easy one. Yes all those other possibilities exist. But no, they did not apply. He simply needed to move the slider.)
The band did introduce me to him at intermission, and ask that he let me help, which he seemed open to.
But again, the "factory setting" was sufficient for the next group, so I left him alone.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

I hear what you're saying, Jack, and I'm thinking about using that line the next time I get a comment from the crowd
Here's my more common scenario:

Patron: This band sucks!
Sound dude: I get that a lot.

For some reason I have no "like" button. So, "like"! And +1!

edit/ must be a time thing, as in it takes time for the "like" button to appear. But still, "like"!

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

I have a great sense of humor and a bunch of "likes" to prove it,

How do you "like" the fact that I ironically "liked" your post?

Also, "likes" can be for just being smart. Not humorous. I think that facts are much less subjective than humor.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Sigh

In the Arturo case, the monitor guy reached over, and slid up the star channel, and went back to his board. Problem solved.
In the "its like this every night", it would have taken a conversation of philosophical differences, which we had neither the time, nor me the inclination for.
He was of the opinion that he had the board set right, and that she just needed to "sing right".
I am of the opinion that one must follow these things, and make adjustments as needed.

In the OP case, I thought I made myself clear. I requested more vocals, got a funny answer, and no solution. (And to be clear, the solution was (in this case) a very easy one. Yes all those other possibilities exist. But no, they did not apply. He simply needed to move the slider.)
The band did introduce me to him at intermission, and ask that he let me help, which he seemed open to.
But again, the "factory setting" was sufficient for the next group, so I left him alone.

All he had to do was move a fader to match YOUR image of what the mix should be at YOUR listening position? This sounds more to me like the problem was he disregarded YOUR advise.

I usually tell people that want that much control they would be better off sitting at home with their own stereo.

You got off easy with only " I get that a lot".

I have done gigs as a BE where it was clear I knew more than the house tech and I have done gigs where it was clear the house tech knew more than me. The same has happened as a system tech. I treat all of those as a learning situation.

Random comments either get "I am working on it" or " I will check it" but just because a random audience member thinks something needs to change doesn't obligate me to change anything. It doesn't matter how easy the change is, it remains my sole decision.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

I usually tell people that want that much control they would be better off sitting at home with their own stereo.
You got off easy with only " I get that a lot".

1) there are 100 reasons that the vocal was not loud enough
2) it was only "not loud enough for me"
3) Then why was it loud enough for me on the next act?

It seems that you are bound and determined that I am the problem here, and that there is not even any humor involved.
Even if your reasons all contradict each other.

And even if he was letting me off easy, and saying it in an ironic tone (which I didn't think he was) it would still be funny.

"All that incessant feedback is annoying"
"Yeah, I get that a lot"

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Sigh

Jack, I think we've gotten OT from the joke by a long shot. I started my tangent by responding to Bennett's comment about always trying to give the sound mixer person some positive feedback if it's warranted even a little bit. It was never meant to apply to your OP. The joke stood on it's own, and I was seconding Bennett's sentiments due to how many times I've been abused by performers already. Terribly sorry about the disconnect there.

It is your place to complain, sure. You paid for a good show, and are qualified to help him. I agree that he probably sucks at mixing and needs the help. I'm not defending him. But I'm just saying it's probably best to just let it ride; he'll get what's coming to him eventually if he doesn't accept the help. No reason to stress over it, and certainly no reason to start bickering about it. To be honest, I'm not even sure what the last few posts have been about.

I'd have just take his name down "for industry connections" and then never hire/contact him. ~:-D~:grin:

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Sigh

Just as you are bound and determined the incompetence of the mixer was the problem

If the mixer was incompetent, I am not sure what you gain by bringing it up. If he was competent, then there is some hidden variable limiting what he can do that you are not aware of. In that case the advise you offered is also worthless.

All you have done is reinforce why I don't give any weight to advise from audience members.

If you want to build yourself up by second guessing someone else's mixing, go ahead. This is America, Monday morning quarterbacking is a way of life.



Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[Mike Brown]

Re: Sigh

All he had to do was move a fader to match YOUR image of what the mix should be at YOUR listening position? This sounds more to me like the problem was he disregarded YOUR advise.

I usually tell people that want that much control they would be better off sitting at home with their own stereo.

You got off easy with only " I get that a lot".

I have done gigs as a BE where it was clear I knew more than the house tech and I have done gigs where it was clear the house tech knew more than me. The same has happened as a system tech. I treat all of those as a learning situation.

Random comments either get "I am working on it" or " I will check it" but just because a random audience member thinks something needs to change doesn't obligate me to change anything. It doesn't matter how easy the change is, it remains my sole decision.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

+1

If I'm not mixing I don't say anything other than "sounds great, thank you!" on my way out if it did indeed sound good.

All shows have mitigating factors for great sound. In fact EVERYTHING we do is a mitigating factor. Amplifying sound has many terrifying consequences. As long as you are putting an effort in to not be a detriment you are ok with me. If the mix was poor I'm not going to say anything.

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: Sigh

1) there are 100 reasons that the vocal was not loud enough
2) it was only "not loud enough for me"
3) Then why was it loud enough for me on the next act?

It seems that you are bound and determined that I am the problem here, and that there is not even any humor involved.
Even if your reasons all contradict each other.

And even if he was letting me off easy, and saying it in an ironic tone (which I didn't think he was) it would still be funny.

"All that incessant feedback is annoying"
"Yeah, I get that a lot"

I get the humor Jack.

As an aside, I don't think Einstein actually said this, but Google sure seems to think so. :lol:


I also see Jay's point, both from the audience member perspective and the tech behind the console perspective.

I don't know if 100% of advice given by a member of the audience is wrong, maybe 90%. I mixed FOH for a Queen tribute a few months back and the estimated crowd was "older folk", as I result I started the night out trying to keep levels down (below 95Db on my handheld meter). Another One Bites the Dust came on and what I assume was an inebriated time traveller (his outfit was quite dated) yells "woooo, turn it up buddy!", in that case I was happy to comply and it seemed to get the crowd on their feet.

Other times, a sour old lady approached you to inform you that the band is too loud from where she is sitting - in front of the dual 18 subwoofers.

As an audience member I try to leave the sound guy/gal alone, sometimes it's really tough if the mix is particularly bad. I went to a local pub last Boxing Day to watch a Tool/Rage Against the Machine cover bands and left after the first three songs because the obnoxiously loud hat channel was trashing my ears - why they felt the need to mic the hats in a hole in the wall pub is another topic.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

I hear what you're saying, Jack, and I'm thinking about using that line the next time I get a comment from the crowd
Here's my more common scenario:

Patron: This band sucks!
Sound dude: I get that a lot.

Oh! How about this one?
Patron: "The sound is great!"
Sound Dude: (in a droll, bored tone) "Yeah, I get that a lot"

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Sigh

Oh! How about this one?
Patron: "The sound is great!"
Sound Dude: (in a droll, bored tone) "Yeah, I get that a lot"

What fantasy world is that in? :twisted:

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Sigh

I don't know if 100% of advice given by a member of the audience is wrong, maybe 90%.

I disagree, to a certain extent. I maintain that a lot of advice, or suggestions (excluding drunks) are helpful, if the context is known.
Jay even said that the audience members that couldn't hear were out of the pattern of the speakers. This is helpful advice.

Two more anactotes that now come to mind.

Re: Old Ladies
I sometimes mix from inoportune places. Usually so that I am not killing a bunch of prime seats. I am used to being able to hear what is going on, in context. But sometimes an instrument that is out of the broader range of the system/room will prove an exception. One night at intermission a woman at least 85 years old came over to the board and requested more pipes. I turned them up about 3 db. That show is in a small town, it is a long day, with green room food. If I load out fast, I can make it to the local brew pub for real food before they close. (Regular restaurants have long closed.) Many patrons do the same thing, and in fact, she was there eating. She saw me and hobbled clear across the restaurant to thank me.

Re: Hi Hat
About 25 years ago I was mixing a touring reggae band to a mostly empty hall. The sound man for the opening band, took a long time to work up the courage, and despite the fact that he was obviously very stoned, requested more hi hat. I obliged, and watched his face melt in ecstasy. I have never seen that visceral a reaction to a change in a mix. I have got a thumbs up, and a nod of the head, or a smile and thanks, but this was far beyond that.

As an aside, I don't think Einstein actually said this, but Google sure seems to think so. :lol: