Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

[Simon Eves]

I am preparing for a rock musical in a small 99-seat theatre, 35'-wide 18"-elevated stage, five rows of 4+12+4 ex-cinema seats all on the floor, vaulted roof (18' center stage, 14-15' at sides), low side and back interior walls.

They have never done a show with (proper) amplified vocals before (certainly not in that space, which they have only had since last summer).

So far this season, they have made do putting their pair of FBT Maxx 2a (actually-quite-decent-sounding plastic-box 10"+horn 250W powered monitors) on stands at the sides off-stage, as they've only needed them for background music or sound effects.

Budget (or lack thereof) has so far precluded any kind of overhead lighting rig, so all the lighting instruments are hung from the side walls or at the back.

For my show, I need some kind of centre speaker fill for the vocals, and my plan is to use the FBTs and fly them from the roof, with another (borrowed) pair of powered speakers (probably JBL or Behringer 15+horn of some kind) on stands where the FBTs used to be.

My question is whether I should space the FBTs apart (say 1/3 and 2/3 across the stage) facing straight out, or put them together as a two-way mini-cluster (angled outwards at whatever angle is appropriate to overlap their coverages), or something in between.

The problem is that options for flying are limited due to the wires having to go to the roof beams, so I really need to pick something and go with it.

I need to fly them as high as possible, since even if right up there, they'll only be at maybe 15' off the stage, and I will have actors with MKE2s in the hairline... plus the fairly-reflective side and back walls... ugh... fingers crossed.

Any and all thoughts warmly welcomed.

[Edit] Oh, and it'll be a four-piece (piano, bass, drums, violin) "live" band (local amps) partly in one of the wings, but fully DI'd and mic'd into the house too (as much as needed, which might not be much)... mainly worried about the vocals.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

I am preparing for a rock musical in a small 99-seat theatre, 35'-wide 18"-elevated stage, five rows of 4+12+4 ex-cinema seats all on the floor, vaulted roof (18' center stage, 14-15' at sides), low side and back interior walls.

They have never done a show with (proper) amplified vocals before (certainly not in that space, which they have only had since last summer).

So far this season, they have made do putting their pair of FBT Maxx 2a (actually-quite-decent-sounding plastic-box 10"+horn 250W powered monitors) on stands at the sides off-stage, as they've only needed them for background music or sound effects.

Budget (or lack thereof) has so far precluded any kind of overhead lighting rig, so all the lighting instruments are hung from the side walls or at the back.

For my show, I need some kind of centre speaker fill for the vocals, and my plan is to use the FBTs and fly them from the roof, with another (borrowed) pair of powered speakers (probably JBL or Behringer 15+horn of some kind) on stands where the FBTs used to be.

My question is whether I should space the FBTs apart (say 1/3 and 2/3 across the stage) facing straight out, or put them together as a two-way mini-cluster (angled outwards at whatever angle is appropriate to overlap their coverages), or something in between.

The problem is that options for flying are limited due to the wires having to go to the roof beams, so I really need to pick something and go with it.

I need to fly them as high as possible, since even if right up there, they'll only be at maybe 15' off the stage, and I will have actors with MKE2s in the hairline... plus the fairly-reflective side and back walls... ugh... fingers crossed.

Any and all thoughts warmly welcomed.

[Edit] Oh, and it'll be a four-piece (piano, bass, drums, violin) "live" band (local amps) partly in one of the wings, but fully DI'd and mic'd into the house too (as much as needed, which might not be much)... mainly worried about the vocals.

Two things that strike me right off the bat are: if at all possible, find another one of the FBTs for your center box. The more matched each source going to the audience is, the better, and changing brands between center/outside is going to be less than savory. Also, you might want a sub or two… just in case. Those 10"s aren't gonna do too much for you down low.

Break a leg.

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

Two things that strike me right off the bat are: if at all possible, find another one of the FBTs for your center box. The more matched each source going to the audience is, the better, and changing brands between center/outside is going to be less than savory. Also, you might want a sub or two… just in case. Those 10"s aren't gonna do too much for you down low.

To make a three-way centre cluster? Yeah, makes sense. That model is no longer made, but maybe I can find a used one. That would certainly give more coverage without holes. The horizontal spread on the 2a is supposed to be 90 degrees, but I'm guessing the -6dB point is narrower than that.

As for the bass aspect, I was intending the centre to be mostly vocals, with maybe the band panned not quite hard left and right (LCR panning on an X32). The side speakers (probably JBL EON 515, Behringer B215 or equivalent) would be mostly the band, with some vocals to balance for the front side seats. Do you really think we'll need more bass in the house? I don't think I'm going to be able to get the show as loud as I would like anyway, due to feedback limitations with the lavaliers on the actors (the director doesn't want booms, and tape-to-cheek really doesn't sound as good as hairline).

I don't have the money for anything else. Just hanging the centre cluster is going to be a feat unto itself, especially if it's now 90lbs plus hardware instead of 60...

Good input, though. Thank you!

Break a leg.

Thank you for that too!

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

FBT EVO Maxx 2A 10" 2 Way Bi Amped Speaker New | eBay

$679 for one? Ouch! Shame this group doesn't have as much money now as when they bought those... :\

 

[Tim Perry]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

Um 5 rows of seats total? Rock show... flown center fill? Small venue!

I'm going to suggest you keep it simple as possible and put a "rock" stack left and right angle them in and call it a show.

The thing with fills is you want to hear them ONLY or mostly. It seem's that a large part of this audience is going to be blasted by all sources including the stage volume thereby turning the sound into a kind of mushy mess. No disrespect to your mixing ability but this show sounds like it could be a problem child.

<edit typos>

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

Um 5 rows of seats total? Rock show... flown center fill? Small venue!

I'm going to suggest you keep it simple as possible and put a "rock" stack left and right angle them in and call it a show.

The thing with fills is you want to here then ONLY or mostly. It seem that a large part of this audience is going to be blasted by all sources including the stage volume thereby turning the sound into a kind of mushy mess. No disrespect to your mixing ability but this show sounds like it could be a problem child.

Agreed. OP is over-thinking this. At most I'd go with a vocal only PA as is angled in in a cross-fire pattern. If you need any more of the group other than their amps, add your other speakers below the vocal PA speakers and run dual PA.

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

Agreed. OP is over-thinking this.

I guess I am.

I'm just paranoid about keeping speaker coverage off the stage, as I fear the room is going to be a feedback and/or comb-filtering nightmare (vaulted wooden ceiling, hard side and back walls), and we have some amazing singers so I really want the vocals to be super-clean.

The non-musical show in there right now has the FBTs mounted horizontally (hence 60-degrees wide) and straight out on a horizontal truss (which will not be staying), and there's a huge sound hole in the middle, which is what led me to believe that a centre would be necessary.

I guess I could find some taller stands for the FBTs (to avoid totally blasting the front/side seats) and keep them at the sides, as close as possible.

When the current show strikes, and that truss (and the FBTs) come down, I will go in there with my mics and a couple of my actors, and try a few things out.

Thanks, everybody!

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

Draw the room to scale even if just on paper and sketch in the nominal pattern of the speakers at the various potential locations, that should help give some idea of any major gaps in coverage. However, that is just nominal coverage and the actual coverage will vary with frequency.

I believe the only fly points on the Maxx 2a are one on the top and one on the bottom and they're apparently really intended for attaching the optional U-bracket.

The speaker locations and aiming will have some effect on potential gain before feedback but so will the microphones used and their locations and orientation as well as any stage monitors. When you lay out the room and coverage you may also want to look at where you will have mics and their patterns.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

I'll just add this:

What console are you using and what/how much processing do you have available??? This will have as much to do with your GBF as proper speaker and mic placement/type.

And in that small a room with that limited an audience, I'd for sure go for enhancement and support rather than amplification.

 

[Tim Perry]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

I guess I am.

I'm just paranoid about keeping speaker coverage off the stage, as I fear the room is going to be a feedback and/or comb-filtering nightmare (vaulted wooden ceiling, hard side and back walls), and we have some amazing singers so I really want the vocals to be super-clean.

Find some way to tilt the speakers down, either tilt down speaker like K-12, tilt done stand, or hanging

The non-musical show in there right now has the FBTs mounted horizontally (hence 60-degrees wide) and straight out on a horizontal truss (which will not be staying), and there's a huge sound hole in the middle, which is what led me to believe that a centre would be necessary.

Humm, an idiotically placed speaker and problem in coverage. Imagine that.

I guess I could find some taller stands for the FBTs (to avoid totally blasting the front/side seats) and keep them at the sides, as close as possible.

I like to point out that with only 5 rows of seating the if you are totally blasting out the front row you are totally blasting out the last row.

When the current show strikes, and that truss (and the FBTs) come down, I will go in there with my mics and a couple of my actors, and try a few things out.

Thanks, everybody!

You might consider putting the mains upstage behind the performers. They then become the mains + monitors. Use vocals only. This will get you a surprisingy clean sound
Really, small venues are tough to do loud shows and sometimes a non standard approach to sound yields superior results..

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

What console are you using and what/how much processing do you have available??? This will have as much to do with your GBF as proper speaker and mic placement/type.

I'll be using an X32, so plenty of digital tweakage available, but I don't have a dedicated Feedback Killer unit or anything.

And in that small a room with that limited an audience, I'd for sure go for enhancement and support rather than amplification.

The MD is going to set the "live" band level, so I guess everything depends on that. Enhancement and support indeed.

Find some way to tilt the speakers down, either tilt down speaker like K-12, tilt done stand, or hanging.

There's plenty of places to put them at the sides. I will look into tilt adaptors for the existing stands. My understanding is that the rule of thumb is that you aim them at the back row, and let the vertical falloff compensate for the front rows being closer.

I like to point out that with only 5 rows of seating the if you are totally blasting out the front row you are totally blasting out the last row.

Good point. Maybe the above rule of thumb only really takes effect with bigger venues! But hey, at least it'll be consistent!

You might consider putting the mains upstage behind the performers. They then become the mains + monitors. Use vocals only. This will get you a surprisingly clean sound. Really, small venues are tough to do loud shows and sometimes a non standard approach to sound yields superior results.

I'm sorry, but I'm confused by this. Do you mean for band only or vocals too? Surely that would be a feedback-fest with vocals behind actors with omni mics? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you...

Here's a render of a 3D model I made last night of the theatre and stage layout, as part of planning a new truss (which almost certainly won't happen, so ignore the blue bits). The speakers, if placed at the sides, would probably be on the top inside corners of the green wing walls, or thereabouts. There are side walls (also not full height) to the seating area which I didn't model. I didn't model the seats either, but the first row is about 8' back from the thrust. The band will be in the SR wing, although not completely hidden. The set is likely to fill most of the stage in all three dimensions.

 

[Eric Simna]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

From your description and the band you listed, I'm going to take a guess and say you're doing 'Next To Normal'? In that small of a space, you're going to have trouble getting vocals over the band. If you have trouble getting vocals over, move the mic closer to the mouth. Better to hear the actor and see the mic, rather than hide the mic and never hear them.

I'd go with the L-R Stacks and do my best to keep them focused away from the playing area.

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

From your description and the band you listed, I'm going to take a guess and say you're doing 'Next To Normal'?

I'd say "good guess", but I remember you from my November thread about headphone monitors...

Yeah, that's the show... except without a cellist or a guitarist, as I said in the other thread. The latter of those is still scaring me, but the MD swears he has it covered, and at least it's one loud instrument less to worry about getting the vocals over!

In that small of a space, you're going to have trouble getting vocals over the band. If you have trouble getting vocals over, move the mic closer to the mouth. Better to hear the actor and see the mic, rather than hide the mic and never hear them. I'd go with the L-R Stacks and do my best to keep them focused away from the playing area.

This seems to be the consensus. Shame those MKE2s have such chunky-ass wires. Maybe it's time for me and the make-up person to get creative with some moleskin tape.

I shall report back in a couple of weeks after the current show strikes, when I can go in there with some mics and test the limits.

Thanks again, all.

Simon

 

[Eric Simna]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

I'd say "good guess", but I remember you from my November thread about headphone monitors...

Oh yeah.... I forgot about that thread. Good luck!

One trick that I started using on that show when my actresses were sick. I ran the mic over their ear, then down to the jaw and brought it down the jaw line (slightly past the corner on the bottom side of the face) and pointed it up near the corner of the mouth. Doing this with surgical tape, you never saw the mic. The actresses both said it was uncomfortable to start, but they'd rather be heard. This of course only works if you have flesh colored elements.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

This of course only works if you have flesh colored elements.

or mic colored actors

 

[Eric Simna]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

or mic colored actors

If only he was doing "Shrek."

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

I ran the mic over their ear, then down to the jaw and brought it down the jaw line (slightly past the corner on the bottom side of the face) and pointed it up near the corner of the mouth.

You mean like this, keeping the cable under the jaw until the chin?



I'm guessing you had to tape it down pretty continuously, to avoid cable noise from jaw movement?

What sort of mics were you using, do you remember? The other group I work with has some Countryman B6s, which are tiny with very thin cable, easy to hide, but I don't think I'm going to be able to borrow those, and anyway they only have four. The best ones I have are Sennheiser MKE2s, which sound great, but fairly obvious on the cheek.

I had read about using moleskin tape to cover the cable, and then blending it into the cheek with make-up, so that only the mic tip pokes out the end. Not sure how well that works in practice. Plus, of course, any cheek position gives a much duller sound, and more risk of misbehavior in face-to-face situations.

Sorry, I seem to have diverted my own thread...

 

[Eric Simna]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

You mean like this, keeping the cable under the jaw until the chin?

View attachment 9044

I'm guessing you had to tape it down pretty continuously, to avoid cable noise from jaw movement?

What sort of mics were you using, do you remember? The other group I work with has some Countryman B6s, which are tiny with very thin cable, easy to hide, but I don't think I'm going to be able to borrow those, and anyway they only have four. The best ones I have are Sennheiser MKE2s, which sound great, but fairly obvious on the cheek.

That is exactly what I did. If you use the basic 3M surgical tape that you can pick up from any drug store, just rip small pieces, across the roll. I usually use pieces 1/4" inch and do points. It will take makeup fairly well. I can't recall the last time I've had cable noise. For that entire show, I had patrons asking if/where the ladies' mics were.

The elements I own are the Microphone Madness MM-PSM-L.

I also tend to prefer the ear/cheek/chin mounting to the forehead. In my experience, actors who rely too much on the mic, who cannot project, are never picked up well enough by a mic on their forehead.

Audiences are smart. I'm not one to waste my VERY limited time with the cast trying to hide something everyone knows is present (the mic). If a production actually give me the time, I'll do what I can. But if the audience complains about seeing a mic, in my opinion, there are bigger issues with the show. Jay, what's it like being given actual time to work with the cast?

Now that we've wandered WAY off topic. About those speaker placements...

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

Hell, no. This is a fine topic too! Thanks for the idea. I'll certainly give it a try. The other group I work with owns a bunch of MM-PSM-Ls and they're great, and small (halfway between the MKE2 and the B6) if a little fragile. I broke one bending the tip too much off a halo rig (which is why I was surprised at the arrangement you described) and I've had a couple of others killed by make-up. Maybe I was just unlucky.

So, sorry to labor the point, but how far up the chin did you bring the mic head? Or did you keep it "horizontal" under the chin? Any problems with sweat due to not pointing downwards? Was the closeness enough to give GBF even though again not pointing downwards. I guess they're omnis anyway, but even so. What about overloading from being that close to the mouth? I've had PSM-Ls clip halfway up the cheek with belters. Did you add reverb to compensate for the close mic-ing?

Tell me all. I'm fascinated now.

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: Speaker arrangement for small theatre?

...and Transpore, or the white Micropore and make-up over?