Is it more efficient to have a larger quantity of speakers with a lower power level or keep current amount of speakers and up the amp size to max speaker power handling capacity?
Speakers vs bigger amplifier
- Thread starter John P. Hippard
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What are the make and model of the speakers and amp?
Why? Because the pattern of the speaker may be such that adding more will just make it sound worse. Also, adding speakers (I am guessing that you mean speakers in cabinets) doesn't necessarily make it louder.
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Why? Because the pattern of the speaker may be such that adding more will just make it sound worse. Also, adding speakers (I am guessing that you mean speakers in cabinets) doesn't necessarily make it louder.
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Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
It takes double the amplifier to get a 3dB increase in speaker output, provided the speaker has the headroom and there is no power compression (ideal circumstances). It takes a solid 10dB increased output to be considered "twice as loud". So to get any appreciable output increase you will probably need more speakers and more amplifier power, unless your amplifier is grossly undersized right now.
It takes double the amplifier to get a 3dB increase in speaker output, provided the speaker has the headroom and there is no power compression (ideal circumstances). It takes a solid 10dB increased output to be considered "twice as loud". So to get any appreciable output increase you will probably need more speakers and more amplifier power, unless your amplifier is grossly undersized right now.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
I can run my amps bridged now to my current cabinets or up to double the amount of speakers at a lower power by running the amps in stereo. What would be better?
John
I can run my amps bridged now to my current cabinets or up to double the amount of speakers at a lower power by running the amps in stereo. What would be better?
John
Nobody has said anything regarding efficiency yet. I believe the question is really "which will be louder". In that case, given the same speakers, is there enough amplifier power for them start to sound bad without exceeding their thermal limits? If no, then more amplifiers will get you more output. If yes, you need different or more speakers.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
Without knowing more information on your current setup-there is no way to know what would be the best way to improve your setup.
And of course you need to ask "what is more important-loudness or clarity?" Often they are NOT the same and what improves one makes the other one worse.
It depends.
If you are already at the max size amp for the speaker (and that is NOT a cut and dried number to come up with-LOTS of variables involved-style of music etc) then using a larger amp is just going to guarantee you will be needing more speakers or a repair job.
Without knowing more information on your current setup-there is no way to know what would be the best way to improve your setup.
And of course you need to ask "what is more important-loudness or clarity?" Often they are NOT the same and what improves one makes the other one worse.
It depends.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
Speakers run near "max power" often have 3 dB or more thermal compression, so four "500 watt" (EIA 426A power rating) subs run at 250 watts each (1000 watts total) may be 6 dB louder than two 500 watt subs driven with 500 watts each (1000 watts total).
The lower powered speakers will also have less distortion.
Which solution is "better" depends on available room, transportation and storage costs, etc.
Doubling of the quantity of speakers increases efficiency by 3 dB as long as the output sums coherently.
Speakers run near "max power" often have 3 dB or more thermal compression, so four "500 watt" (EIA 426A power rating) subs run at 250 watts each (1000 watts total) may be 6 dB louder than two 500 watt subs driven with 500 watts each (1000 watts total).
The lower powered speakers will also have less distortion.
Which solution is "better" depends on available room, transportation and storage costs, etc.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
That is all a little true.
There is something like coupling which can actually increase the SPL level to about 6 Db Without needing a much bigger amp. But this only really works in the sub frequenties terrain. But is often applied as a trick for sending too low specs PA systems to a place that is too big for the system to work properly.
Whith me as mixer trying to control the base and see it doing all kinds of unpredictable things.
In mids and high you basically get a bigger spread.
Misja
That is all a little true.
There is something like coupling which can actually increase the SPL level to about 6 Db Without needing a much bigger amp. But this only really works in the sub frequenties terrain. But is often applied as a trick for sending too low specs PA systems to a place that is too big for the system to work properly.
Whith me as mixer trying to control the base and see it doing all kinds of unpredictable things.
In mids and high you basically get a bigger spread.
Misja
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
No. THe 6dB comes from DOUBLING BOTH the number of sub cabinets AND the amplifier power. I have never seen a case where you can get 6dB and keep the power the same or "about" the same. It takes DOUBLE. At least as far as I have seen.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
Sorry but you get acoustic doubling. That's almost free about 6 Db's. In Subs that is. The world of physic and specifically obstruction makes it so that it doesnt work in real life with frequences higher than about 120-130 Hz or so.
The amps will run out of juice soon though. But you don't need double te power. If you want to do it right though just make sure the amps can take te load.
Sorry but you get acoustic doubling. That's almost free about 6 Db's. In Subs that is. The world of physic and specifically obstruction makes it so that it doesnt work in real life with frequences higher than about 120-130 Hz or so.
The amps will run out of juice soon though. But you don't need double te power. If you want to do it right though just make sure the amps can take te load.
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Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
In my experience speakers run at "max power" have more like 6-8dB power compression, especially for modern high power handling subwoofers. To actually deliver that kind of power saturation requires great limiters, big amps, and an enclosure that controls excursion well - as you well know! Just sharing some insight gleaned from looking at lots of long term power tests courtesy of Klippel analysis.
In my experience speakers run at "max power" have more like 6-8dB power compression, especially for modern high power handling subwoofers. To actually deliver that kind of power saturation requires great limiters, big amps, and an enclosure that controls excursion well - as you well know! Just sharing some insight gleaned from looking at lots of long term power tests courtesy of Klippel analysis.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
Misja,
Unless you are listening to speakers in outer space that 6dB half space loading applies to all sources, so there cannot be anything unique about it that applies to one set of speakers but not another. Either the subwoofers or our ears or both (but never neither) will always be in half space, so there is no trick to be had.
Misja,
Unless you are listening to speakers in outer space that 6dB half space loading applies to all sources, so there cannot be anything unique about it that applies to one set of speakers but not another. Either the subwoofers or our ears or both (but never neither) will always be in half space, so there is no trick to be had.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
When it comes to speakers, the general rule I try to shoot for is less speakers = better sound. If you can get the volume and quality you need with a single speaker, that should be your goal. Adding a additional speakers complicates matters as far as interference between the cabinets, space needed for setup, cabling, etc.
So, if I had the choice to increase the power to my speaker, and I'm still operating in a safe power range, and the speaker is capable of producing the higher volume cleanly, that's the route I'd go. However, as stated in this thread, sometimes you'll hit a wall with as much as that speaker can produce before frying itself, or just sounding like crap. In that case, the only choices would be to get a better speaker that can get louder, or start to deal with using more speakers to get to the level you desire.
When it comes to speakers, the general rule I try to shoot for is less speakers = better sound. If you can get the volume and quality you need with a single speaker, that should be your goal. Adding a additional speakers complicates matters as far as interference between the cabinets, space needed for setup, cabling, etc.
So, if I had the choice to increase the power to my speaker, and I'm still operating in a safe power range, and the speaker is capable of producing the higher volume cleanly, that's the route I'd go. However, as stated in this thread, sometimes you'll hit a wall with as much as that speaker can produce before frying itself, or just sounding like crap. In that case, the only choices would be to get a better speaker that can get louder, or start to deal with using more speakers to get to the level you desire.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
This is not what I have seen-or experienced or read about in any source.
If you are talking about placing a speaker that is in "free space or whole space" and then putting it on the ground-then I will agree. HOWEVER simply adding a second sub and keeping the power (NOT the voltage) the same to the "system", then I will have to have a lot more convincing to believe that you get 6dB.
Any source of information would be appreciated.
Do you have any proof of this? Or any documentation. If what you are saying is true-then if you also double the power-you would have an increase of 9 dB (6+3).
This is not what I have seen-or experienced or read about in any source.
If you are talking about placing a speaker that is in "free space or whole space" and then putting it on the ground-then I will agree. HOWEVER simply adding a second sub and keeping the power (NOT the voltage) the same to the "system", then I will have to have a lot more convincing to believe that you get 6dB.
Any source of information would be appreciated.
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
I think Misja might be forgetting or unaware that when you double up the number of subs or any type of speaker with true coherent summing on the same amp, the amount of power delivered by the amp doubles up to the point of clip. This is due to twice the current being supplied to the load from the halved impedance of that load vs. half the number of boxes. So yes, you'll get 6dB more with double the subs on the same amp *until* the point where the amp runs out of gas. And of course, the amp will clip at a lower voltage level than before due to current limiting from the drop in impedance, yadda yadda yadda...
I think Misja might be forgetting or unaware that when you double up the number of subs or any type of speaker with true coherent summing on the same amp, the amount of power delivered by the amp doubles up to the point of clip. This is due to twice the current being supplied to the load from the halved impedance of that load vs. half the number of boxes. So yes, you'll get 6dB more with double the subs on the same amp *until* the point where the amp runs out of gas. And of course, the amp will clip at a lower voltage level than before due to current limiting from the drop in impedance, yadda yadda yadda...
Re: Speakers vs bigger amplifier
All amps will do this-as you say- up to the point they run out of current. Some amps are better at this than others.
EXACTLY. With the same voltage applied-the power will double when you half the impedance by adding another loudspeaker.
All amps will do this-as you say- up to the point they run out of current. Some amps are better at this than others.