Has anybody out there run stereo floor monitors? I have a situation in a contemporary-style church where I need monitors for six vocalists. If I can't make the sell on IEM, then I'm tempted to try two pairs of floor monitors running stereo. My reasoning is that stereo imaging through the wedges could help them just as it's known to do with IEMs.
Stereo floor monitor for vocalists?
- Thread starter Steve Maksim
- Start date
Re: Stereo floor monitor for vocalists?
In my opinon the fewer monitors the better. First, how much benifit do you really think stereo wedges will give a vocalist? Think about what they usually ask for: 1) More me. 2) More of another vocalist, usually the lead if they are not the lead. 3) More of an instrument they are playing if this applies. 4) occasionally more of a single instrument and it is usually something they are using to sing to like a keyboard or accoustic guitar or a track. Being on stage one usually hears most of the instruments from the proximity to them. What they are striving for is to hear themselves. The more you put in a wedge the less clarity you will have. You will find the more experienced singers will only want themselves or occasionally themselves and the lead vocal in the wedge. It is interesting to note that they will also usually want the lead as loud or even a littler louder so they can blend with it.
In ears are providing isolation so you can actually build a true stereo mix if you want to. They are completely different from listening to wedges. They even can have their own unique problems like dealing with the latency of digital processing causing a comb filter effect with the sound arriving to ones ears through the solid parts of the body from the vocal chords, but that is another topic.
I have done thousands of shows and what I teach all my engineers to do with monitors is to put only the mic in front of the wedge in as a place to start. 98% of the time that is all that is needed except the occasionals I mentioned above. Another thing that usually helps is to cut the lows on the wedge below 100hz and even as high as 125-200hz on some singers if you have the capability and you are not putting anything in the wedge like kik drum or a track that has something like that in it. This will go a long way in clearing up the things you don't want in there like stage rumble, plosives, mic handling noise, etc.
I promise you most people really don't know what they actually need in the wedge. If you set up the monitors like I recommend above and tell the group to run through a song and see what they need, if anything at all, you will usually seem like the professional (which you are) in their eyes. If there is a seperate monitor console at the stage or you can see and communitate with everyone you can make most of the adjustments as you are doing that first song run through. I usually point to each one and then their monitor and give the OK sign to see if they need anything. At the end of the run through I always ask, "Are the monitors good?" and, "Does anybody need anything else?" It is amazing how once most people feel confident with you looking out for their monitor needs they quickly turn their attention to their performance and enjoying the show.
In my opinon the fewer monitors the better. First, how much benifit do you really think stereo wedges will give a vocalist? Think about what they usually ask for: 1) More me. 2) More of another vocalist, usually the lead if they are not the lead. 3) More of an instrument they are playing if this applies. 4) occasionally more of a single instrument and it is usually something they are using to sing to like a keyboard or accoustic guitar or a track. Being on stage one usually hears most of the instruments from the proximity to them. What they are striving for is to hear themselves. The more you put in a wedge the less clarity you will have. You will find the more experienced singers will only want themselves or occasionally themselves and the lead vocal in the wedge. It is interesting to note that they will also usually want the lead as loud or even a littler louder so they can blend with it.
In ears are providing isolation so you can actually build a true stereo mix if you want to. They are completely different from listening to wedges. They even can have their own unique problems like dealing with the latency of digital processing causing a comb filter effect with the sound arriving to ones ears through the solid parts of the body from the vocal chords, but that is another topic.
I have done thousands of shows and what I teach all my engineers to do with monitors is to put only the mic in front of the wedge in as a place to start. 98% of the time that is all that is needed except the occasionals I mentioned above. Another thing that usually helps is to cut the lows on the wedge below 100hz and even as high as 125-200hz on some singers if you have the capability and you are not putting anything in the wedge like kik drum or a track that has something like that in it. This will go a long way in clearing up the things you don't want in there like stage rumble, plosives, mic handling noise, etc.
I promise you most people really don't know what they actually need in the wedge. If you set up the monitors like I recommend above and tell the group to run through a song and see what they need, if anything at all, you will usually seem like the professional (which you are) in their eyes. If there is a seperate monitor console at the stage or you can see and communitate with everyone you can make most of the adjustments as you are doing that first song run through. I usually point to each one and then their monitor and give the OK sign to see if they need anything. At the end of the run through I always ask, "Are the monitors good?" and, "Does anybody need anything else?" It is amazing how once most people feel confident with you looking out for their monitor needs they quickly turn their attention to their performance and enjoying the show.
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Re: Stereo floor monitor for vocalists?
Sometimes it is much more important/effective to get rid of what you have to much or-rather than try to more of what you don't have enough of-or "think" you don't have enough.
It is the "extra stuff" that gets in the way-and results in singers wanting more vocal.
TURN IT DOWN-is never a bad thing!
Agreed! The less "crap" you have floating around on stage the better it is going to sound for EVERYBODY-including the musicians.
Sometimes it is much more important/effective to get rid of what you have to much or-rather than try to more of what you don't have enough of-or "think" you don't have enough.
It is the "extra stuff" that gets in the way-and results in singers wanting more vocal.
TURN IT DOWN-is never a bad thing!
Re: Stereo floor monitor for vocalists?
I've never done a stereo mix in wedges. For an incredible hard to please lead vocal, I've had two sets of wedges in front of him. The center two on one mix, the outer two on another. Two primarily for his vocal, the other two primarily for instrumentals.
He doesn't 'know' what he needs in the wedge. He'll say one thing, but it really means something completely different!
It'll be hard to get real stereo imaging in wedges though.
I've never done a stereo mix in wedges. For an incredible hard to please lead vocal, I've had two sets of wedges in front of him. The center two on one mix, the outer two on another. Two primarily for his vocal, the other two primarily for instrumentals.
He doesn't 'know' what he needs in the wedge. He'll say one thing, but it really means something completely different!
It'll be hard to get real stereo imaging in wedges though.
Re: Stereo floor monitor for vocalists?
I guess I should answer the question about ever running stereo wedges before. Yes, I have many times and that is why I answered the way I did. The only time it really worked as a positive, in my opinon, was with the keyboard player of a national southern rock band I used to run monitors for occasionally. We ran the keys stereo and split the 2 guitars hard left and hard right and put a little kik and snare in as well. He was on the extreme stage right facing toward the center of the stage and the set up really put him in the middle of the music. Every other time I have set up a stereo pair I have always ended up running both sides the same and using the guidelines of my first post. It has always come down to the vocalist being able to hear himself or herself with the drums and all of the amplified instruments playing on stage. Believe me I like to experiment and try new things but my first post is the result of 30 years of those experiments. Just my opinion for what it is worth. I hope they go for the in ear set up but if they don't I hope my information will be useful to you. Good luck! Eric
I guess I should answer the question about ever running stereo wedges before. Yes, I have many times and that is why I answered the way I did. The only time it really worked as a positive, in my opinon, was with the keyboard player of a national southern rock band I used to run monitors for occasionally. We ran the keys stereo and split the 2 guitars hard left and hard right and put a little kik and snare in as well. He was on the extreme stage right facing toward the center of the stage and the set up really put him in the middle of the music. Every other time I have set up a stereo pair I have always ended up running both sides the same and using the guidelines of my first post. It has always come down to the vocalist being able to hear himself or herself with the drums and all of the amplified instruments playing on stage. Believe me I like to experiment and try new things but my first post is the result of 30 years of those experiments. Just my opinion for what it is worth. I hope they go for the in ear set up but if they don't I hope my information will be useful to you. Good luck! Eric
IMHO trying to get fancy with wedges defeats the point of loud, simple wedges. The reason we do stereo with room mics and reverb in ears is because we have to build that person's complete acoustic environment - they're cut off from the world by the ears. Wedges are different, extra stuff can just make things worse since it competes with stage wash.
Re: Stereo floor monitor for vocalists?
There have been a couple of attempts at "two wedges, one box" monitors over the years, but now I can't recall who made them. They've all the problems with pairs of wedges with none of the positioning flexibility of individual monitors.
If your singers genuinely have a problem hearing themselves over the stage SPL, the music minister needs to be Music Director and declare the Noize UnJoyful®. I'm not sure why, but there is a huge disconnect between the "artistic" side and the technical side, and it's not just in houses of worship... But your singers and congregation are better served with stage levels are under control. If the music minister is the cause of the SPL... you have my sympathies; I've been there, quit that, didn't stay for the rending of garments.
If the problem is with the talent, i.e. timid singers with little experience, a good voice coach can help a great deal. The improvements will remain long after the Gear Acquisition Syndrome has done a couple of cycles, too. Spending money on the singers is good stewardship, and there is no reason those investments MUST be hardware.
Or are there other issues you hope to address with a different monitoring arrangement?
There have been a couple of attempts at "two wedges, one box" monitors over the years, but now I can't recall who made them. They've all the problems with pairs of wedges with none of the positioning flexibility of individual monitors.
If your singers genuinely have a problem hearing themselves over the stage SPL, the music minister needs to be Music Director and declare the Noize UnJoyful®. I'm not sure why, but there is a huge disconnect between the "artistic" side and the technical side, and it's not just in houses of worship... But your singers and congregation are better served with stage levels are under control. If the music minister is the cause of the SPL... you have my sympathies; I've been there, quit that, didn't stay for the rending of garments.
If the problem is with the talent, i.e. timid singers with little experience, a good voice coach can help a great deal. The improvements will remain long after the Gear Acquisition Syndrome has done a couple of cycles, too. Spending money on the singers is good stewardship, and there is no reason those investments MUST be hardware.
Or are there other issues you hope to address with a different monitoring arrangement?
Re: Stereo floor monitor for vocalists?
The most wedges I have run for a single person was 5- on 3 different mixes plus stereo sidefills.
They were arranged in a U with a single wedge downstage-with just his vocals. Then a pair of wedges a bit up stage with the backup vocals. Then a little bit more upstage was a band mix with the "important" instruments. The side fills were pretty much a full band mix.
This way he could step in and out of "various sounds" as he wanted/needed.
The stage volume was well behaved-a good FOH guy and a talented band that played good music. The end result was pleasing for everybody-including the audience.
The whole "trick" to getting a good sound is BALANCE. And EVERYBODY has to be a part of the solution. As soon as one person gets "out of control", the whole thing starts to fall apart.
The most wedges I have run for a single person was 5- on 3 different mixes plus stereo sidefills.
They were arranged in a U with a single wedge downstage-with just his vocals. Then a pair of wedges a bit up stage with the backup vocals. Then a little bit more upstage was a band mix with the "important" instruments. The side fills were pretty much a full band mix.
This way he could step in and out of "various sounds" as he wanted/needed.
The stage volume was well behaved-a good FOH guy and a talented band that played good music. The end result was pleasing for everybody-including the audience.
The whole "trick" to getting a good sound is BALANCE. And EVERYBODY has to be a part of the solution. As soon as one person gets "out of control", the whole thing starts to fall apart.