Has anyone ever used or know anything about the Bag End P-S18E-AD subs? We may be purchasing some for our church but I haven't seen or heard much about them.
Subs Subs Subs
- Thread starter Nick Williamson
- Start date
Re: Subs Subs Subs
I've used the big brother, the D-18E-AD subs. Sounded good, and fit where we needed them to fit. Is there a reason you are going with the AD (Acoustic Dimensions) version? From what I understand, both the single and double 18" versions were originally custom designed for Acoustic Dimensions to fit under a stage.
If you don't need them to fit under a stage or in a certain space, you may want to take a look at the Danley offerings. Danley makes some really good sounding and performing subs, and most of them are available in a powered version as well.
I've used the big brother, the D-18E-AD subs. Sounded good, and fit where we needed them to fit. Is there a reason you are going with the AD (Acoustic Dimensions) version? From what I understand, both the single and double 18" versions were originally custom designed for Acoustic Dimensions to fit under a stage.
If you don't need them to fit under a stage or in a certain space, you may want to take a look at the Danley offerings. Danley makes some really good sounding and performing subs, and most of them are available in a powered version as well.
Re: Subs Subs Subs
If you buy them you still won't hear much about them. A single Danley TH-Mini would probably outrun two of these subs and go lower while doing it. I do not understand Bag End subs and I've had tuning experience with single, dual and quad 18" models - all church installs.
A recent "portable church" system that I was called in to tune because the Bag End subs "didn't have any impact" is a case in point. It was a self-powered dual 18" gizmo that had very little output at the kick fundamental around 60Hz. The high quality tops were capable of about 9dB more clean output than the subs. Whoops.
The switch on the back of this thing has three "-6dB Freq." settings: 8Hz, 50Hz and 95Hz. Liar, liar, your pant's on fire.
Nick said:
If you buy them you still won't hear much about them. A single Danley TH-Mini would probably outrun two of these subs and go lower while doing it. I do not understand Bag End subs and I've had tuning experience with single, dual and quad 18" models - all church installs.
A recent "portable church" system that I was called in to tune because the Bag End subs "didn't have any impact" is a case in point. It was a self-powered dual 18" gizmo that had very little output at the kick fundamental around 60Hz. The high quality tops were capable of about 9dB more clean output than the subs. Whoops.
The switch on the back of this thing has three "-6dB Freq." settings: 8Hz, 50Hz and 95Hz. Liar, liar, your pant's on fire.
Re: Subs Subs Subs
Was this spec'd by Fraud Audio Video, or is the church making this purchase mistake without their assistance?
Was this spec'd by Fraud Audio Video, or is the church making this purchase mistake without their assistance?
Re: Subs Subs Subs
Yeah... it was Fraud.
The primary "home church" has or deals with an install company that supplies prefab portable systems for all their remote "church plants". Because the home church is quite successful, the offshoot churches subscribe to pretty much everything it recommends. Understandable, typical and in this case wrong.
A 4dB, Q=2, 60Hz boost with the usual suspects for high and low pass filters further reduced the output capability of the sub, but they sounded proper. Placing them next to each other downstage center and buying tripods for the UPA-1P's worked pretty well:
Yeah... it was Fraud.
The primary "home church" has or deals with an install company that supplies prefab portable systems for all their remote "church plants". Because the home church is quite successful, the offshoot churches subscribe to pretty much everything it recommends. Understandable, typical and in this case wrong.
A 4dB, Q=2, 60Hz boost with the usual suspects for high and low pass filters further reduced the output capability of the sub, but they sounded proper. Placing them next to each other downstage center and buying tripods for the UPA-1P's worked pretty well:
Last edited:
Re: Subs Subs Subs
I took a Smaart refresher class with Harry a couple of years ago and met 2 guys from a church. When we got to day 3, they had questions about aligning the subs... that were under the balcony pews. Another person in the class said "oh, that install must have been done by Fraud AV." The rest of the class laughed...
I was asked to review a design proposed by the aforementioned company that was for a local church. The video spec was very good as to how the performance of the projection would perform, the needs of the input side of the switcher, stuff like that. The lighting spec included photometric data, evenness of coverage, etc. The audio spec consisted of cut sheets and an equipment list. This review was brought to me by an IATSE brother that was part of the tech team at the church. When he reported on my reservations about the audio spec, he was told he "could quit attending the committee meetings if he was going to be a Negative Nancy." It seems the pastor was a buddy with another pastor who was happy with the install done in HIS church, so criticizing the design/build company was seen as heresy.
Did I ever mention how much I think church installs are more voodoo than science? And that most of them do not represent "good stewardship" but plain ol' cheapness. Those who point out the Emperor's "attire" are then subject to spiritual blackmail.
I took a Smaart refresher class with Harry a couple of years ago and met 2 guys from a church. When we got to day 3, they had questions about aligning the subs... that were under the balcony pews. Another person in the class said "oh, that install must have been done by Fraud AV." The rest of the class laughed...
I was asked to review a design proposed by the aforementioned company that was for a local church. The video spec was very good as to how the performance of the projection would perform, the needs of the input side of the switcher, stuff like that. The lighting spec included photometric data, evenness of coverage, etc. The audio spec consisted of cut sheets and an equipment list. This review was brought to me by an IATSE brother that was part of the tech team at the church. When he reported on my reservations about the audio spec, he was told he "could quit attending the committee meetings if he was going to be a Negative Nancy." It seems the pastor was a buddy with another pastor who was happy with the install done in HIS church, so criticizing the design/build company was seen as heresy.
Did I ever mention how much I think church installs are more voodoo than science? And that most of them do not represent "good stewardship" but plain ol' cheapness. Those who point out the Emperor's "attire" are then subject to spiritual blackmail.
Re: Subs Subs Subs
Yuck. I haven't been exposed to that kind of immaturity yet, just the authority by association and penny-wise, pound-foolish thing.
The magnum opus on the latter: http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf
Yuck. I haven't been exposed to that kind of immaturity yet, just the authority by association and penny-wise, pound-foolish thing.
The magnum opus on the latter: http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf
Re: Subs Subs Subs
It may help to understand how Bag End INFRA subs work. Put a driver in a small sealed enclosure to raise the resonant frequency, then operate it below that frequency and add an 'integrator' to apply EQ to compensate for the controlled low frequency roll-off. The compensation EQ applied at lower frequencies can be pretty extreme, look at Bag End Loudspeakers 847 382 4550 to see the response curves for some of the Bag End boxes without the 'integrator'. Looking at the S18E response in that chart it starts to roll-off somewhere around 65Hz and is 3dB down at about 50Hz. To get flat response at 30Hz means adding 11-12dB of boost at 30Hz. That EQ can then provide extended low frequency response, however it can also lead to limited output capability.
The results of that approach are reflected on something like the P-S18E-I datasheet on Bag End's web site that shows a +/-3dB response of 60-250Hz without the integrator and a maximum 1m output (half space) of 124dB at 80Hz, 115dB at 40Hz and 103dB at 20Hz. Thus limited response without the integrator while with the integrator the lower you want extension, the lower the maximum output. Lang's example reflects that same situation, the low frequency response shown suggests that no integrator was used while using the integrator would usually result in extended response but lower output.
I'm surprised it hasn't already been asked but can you tell us anything about the application and why you are considering that specific product? Whether they may be appropriate or not and what may be a comaprable or better alternative is usually going to be application dependent.
It may help to understand how Bag End INFRA subs work. Put a driver in a small sealed enclosure to raise the resonant frequency, then operate it below that frequency and add an 'integrator' to apply EQ to compensate for the controlled low frequency roll-off. The compensation EQ applied at lower frequencies can be pretty extreme, look at Bag End Loudspeakers 847 382 4550 to see the response curves for some of the Bag End boxes without the 'integrator'. Looking at the S18E response in that chart it starts to roll-off somewhere around 65Hz and is 3dB down at about 50Hz. To get flat response at 30Hz means adding 11-12dB of boost at 30Hz. That EQ can then provide extended low frequency response, however it can also lead to limited output capability.
The results of that approach are reflected on something like the P-S18E-I datasheet on Bag End's web site that shows a +/-3dB response of 60-250Hz without the integrator and a maximum 1m output (half space) of 124dB at 80Hz, 115dB at 40Hz and 103dB at 20Hz. Thus limited response without the integrator while with the integrator the lower you want extension, the lower the maximum output. Lang's example reflects that same situation, the low frequency response shown suggests that no integrator was used while using the integrator would usually result in extended response but lower output.
Re: Subs Subs Subs
That is a VERY important point-and also applies to ANY sub that uses a boost on the bottom to get a lower spec sheet number.
Yes the response at low levels wil be flatter and lower-but as you go up in level, the MAXIMUM output will suffer. You simply will not be able to get the same SPL at higher levels.
If you put a 6-9dB (not untypical) boost on the bottom- you HAVE to subtract that same level from the max SPL spec-assuming you still want a flat response at the louder levels.
You simple can't put a boost and then keep turning it up the same amount. It doesn't work that way.
As I often say-DO THE MATH- PEOPLE! Once people actually start to put a few numbers together-read a few response graphs (I am AMAZED at how many people cannot understand a simple graph-such as freq response-amplitude vs freq), then they will start to actually understand products and see how much "marketing" there is out there.
Yeah-Iknow-that requires a little bit of effort-and now a days people just want other people to tell them. And as a result they just blindly follow along with whatever the manufacturer tells them-whether it is the truth or not.
I do like the fact that on Bag Ends website they state (somewhere-I don't remember) that you won't be able to hear or feel the 8Hz response-but that doesn't keep people from blindly stating that their subs go to 8Hz!!!!!!!!!
Yeah-and my tweeters will do 1hz with NO PROBLEM AT ALL. Now You won't be able to hear it-but you can put a 1 Hz tone into them and watch them move up and down at a 1Hz rate. So they ARE reproducing that freq. Not at any usable level-but they ARE reproducing it.
So every loudspeaker made could make a 1Hz claim. The REAL question is how LOUD is it at 1Hz? Once you start to question THAT-THEN you start to understand.
Getting off my soapbox now. I've got a demo in the desert to get ready for. High temp and low humidity and nothing in the way-let's see har far we can actually get some highs out there with a "super tweeter".
That is a VERY important point-and also applies to ANY sub that uses a boost on the bottom to get a lower spec sheet number.
Yes the response at low levels wil be flatter and lower-but as you go up in level, the MAXIMUM output will suffer. You simply will not be able to get the same SPL at higher levels.
If you put a 6-9dB (not untypical) boost on the bottom- you HAVE to subtract that same level from the max SPL spec-assuming you still want a flat response at the louder levels.
You simple can't put a boost and then keep turning it up the same amount. It doesn't work that way.
As I often say-DO THE MATH- PEOPLE! Once people actually start to put a few numbers together-read a few response graphs (I am AMAZED at how many people cannot understand a simple graph-such as freq response-amplitude vs freq), then they will start to actually understand products and see how much "marketing" there is out there.
Yeah-Iknow-that requires a little bit of effort-and now a days people just want other people to tell them. And as a result they just blindly follow along with whatever the manufacturer tells them-whether it is the truth or not.
I do like the fact that on Bag Ends website they state (somewhere-I don't remember) that you won't be able to hear or feel the 8Hz response-but that doesn't keep people from blindly stating that their subs go to 8Hz!!!!!!!!!
Yeah-and my tweeters will do 1hz with NO PROBLEM AT ALL. Now You won't be able to hear it-but you can put a 1 Hz tone into them and watch them move up and down at a 1Hz rate. So they ARE reproducing that freq. Not at any usable level-but they ARE reproducing it.
So every loudspeaker made could make a 1Hz claim. The REAL question is how LOUD is it at 1Hz? Once you start to question THAT-THEN you start to understand.
Getting off my soapbox now. I've got a demo in the desert to get ready for. High temp and low humidity and nothing in the way-let's see har far we can actually get some highs out there with a "super tweeter".
Re: Subs Subs Subs
I use that same mindset when people ask me how many people my sound system can cover. I say 200,000 but nobody past the first 3 rows can hear it.
I use that same mindset when people ask me how many people my sound system can cover. I say 200,000 but nobody past the first 3 rows can hear it.