Theatre install

[Shane Presley]

Re: Theatre install

Are those Hellerman sleeves or heatshrink you're using to insulate the foil on the shielded pairs? I've kind of grown fond of the Hellermans myself over the years

Geoff

Hey Geoff , yup hellerman over everything and I've changed to smaller hellerman over the shield instead of Teflon tube. I've got mixed feelings about them.. I'm using a bit of cable lube to get them to release easier off the tool, but it also makes them want to take off, but it's easier than picking up the heatgun in a place that very few power outlets are working (because the EC are working on panels). This install makes me shake my head everyday. I'm pretty sure that the consultant /designer has never worked a show in his life. He spec'd 400 lighting fixtures and he didn't know which was a leko, nor how to open the blades or focus it... He couldn't even plug in the 20 amp twist! Speakon wall plates being used in meeting rooms for 8" tannoy install speakers (qty 7 btw in a 20x20' room) instead of just wiring the speakers directly driving up costs, and labour... And now there's no money to buy a projector for the main hall....there's a projection room, just no projector , so they have dry walled over the window and "someday" there will be money for the projector... Stupid stuff being done all over the place with the only reason being that whoever desiged this thing doesn't know a thing about it. Oh did I mention that there are 6, 12"x12" plates with 8 bi-amp speakons being installed IN THE LIGHTING GRID... The house pa, Meyer M1d... Would any touring show use house speakon patch instead of their own cable.... I think not. MORE photos next week...

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Theatre install

I said "spec'd", so presumably the cost would have been included in the initial quote to the client. And depending on how the conduit run is laid out, running several smaller conduits vs. a 6" run isn't always significantly more work, especially when the labor savings on the pulls is factored in.

But the cost is still there and the Consultant is usually looking at the overall picture rather than just the AV Contractor's part of it. Most E.C.s have always told me that the majority of the cost of a conduit run is in the labor and relative to that cost the size of the conduit does not make that big difference while multiple conduit runs would also equate to multiple separate pulls, thus multiple smaller conduit runs at least appears a likely more expensive solution.

I've been using the concept of gathering multiple runs from around a stage to a junction box with a single large conduit then run to the termination point(s) for almost 30 years and never had a complaint or comment from the E.C. or AV Contractor even when I was working with or for them. And no inline splices anywhere in a run, although in some cases there have been terminal blocks for specific purposes or transformers for mic splits in the intermediate junction box. I will say that for a 375' run of a conduit carrying 96 lines I would have had some intermediate pull boxes, my 'standard' calls for intermediate pull boxes to be provided for any run over 50' in length or where there is a total of more than 180 degrees of bends and turns.

I recall a similar, but smaller, situation to this where they neglected to label the cables before pulling them and as a result they they had to ring out every line afterwards to identify which cable was which. An example of a less effective installation approach, but it shows how the effort required for pulling cable can be affected by the organization and planning invested. I've been involved in several projects where there were multiple AV Contractors handling different parts of the work and you might see one pull two or three times the cable of another in a day due purely to how organized and prepared they were when they came on site and how they approached the work.

Shane, I wish more of my projects had work like yours! The quality of field work is sometimes quite disappointing.

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: Theatre install

A new very large recording room in the building, and more glaring issues... I built a $4300 argosy recording work desk to house, wait for it.... Two motu rack units and a 4 space rack mount computer....NO CONSOLE, just two mackie hui controllers! (What you see in the picture, is what is going in that desk) There are five Jbl powered studio monitors on stands with a 12" sub (no jack on the wall for the sub), all of speakers are ahead of the desk position, so what I believe are surround speakers (4&5) are still in front of the console.. This again just shows that the consultant is clueless...
The drawings in the photos are two small racks which are INSTALLED, in a broadcast rack room, under a work counter... I located the racks and they are SKB, plastic, floating, no wheel racks with front and back lids!, Why would you spec a non moving rack with lids in an install... Meanwhile all other racks in the building are middle Atlantic , nice metal install racks... GONNNNNNGG. It just makes me shake my head everyday that this guy is spending my tax money on items going in this building that might never be used, or is being over spec'd... Did you see the size of that recording room...(and it acoustically sounds like a turd)... Good luck mixing.

 

[Steven Barnes]

Re: Theatre install

Not saying there is any excuse for this stuff you are dealing with you, but it does happen. Some jobs are great and others not so much. I was just out in Miami a couple month ago and the GC and EC decided to just leave out all the A/V Conduit to save money. Fortunately our foreman for the project did a walk through and brought up the fact that there were (6) 1" conduit in the AV closet vs the (50)+ there were supposed to be. The job was still a mess, but it happens.

On another note, I have been moving out of the install side of things and towards the design end of things. It is a whole new ball game dealing with budgets, clients, etc coming from the other side of things. There are a lot of stupid things that happen that are not industry standard due to budget/ ascetic/ building reasons. But at the end of the day the client should get what they want/need and are paying for. Which is sounds like in this case they are not quite.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Theatre install

Not saying there is any excuse for this stuff you are dealing with you, but it does happen. Some jobs are great and others not so much. I was just out in Miami a couple month ago and the GC and EC decided to just leave out all the A/V Conduit to save money. Fortunately our foreman for the project did a walk through and brought up the fact that there were (6) 1" conduit in the AV closet vs the (50)+ there were supposed to be. The job was still a mess, but it happens.

I once was the Consultant on a good sized corporate AV project and during the AV Pre-Bid meeting a question came up about conduit. After I had responded about where conduit was being provided the GC spoke up to say that there had been a VE decision that the EE had approved to delete conduit and they had assumed that included all of the AV conduit so other than required to get though walls, etc. there was now no conduit being provided. Nice of someone to ask for our input or at least let us know what was going on. And changing all the affected AV cabling over to plenum cable probably cost more than they saved by deleting the conduit, so hardly a good example of Value Engineering.

I find that some of the odd things you find may be the result of specific requests, budget cuts, 'futureproofing', etc. It could be that the Consultant messed up, but then again they may have done exactly what was asked of them. Numerous times I have overheard a Contractor opining how stupid or rdiciulous something I did is when there is actually a reason for it being that way. In fact I once had a Contractor 'fix' my design during installation only to have to redo it all after they were told by the Client that they had specifically asked for it to be as shown in my design and weren't paying for it until it was installed that way.

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: Theatre install

So it's been awhile, and I've still been on this install, 4 days a week, and the end in sight is early June. Stupidity is still popping up everywhere and coming from supposed professionals. Example, the company that installed the motors didn't leave any motor control, no pickles, nothing. Requests went through the gc last week to get said company to send us local motor control to hoist the 100+ fixtures into the grid. Monday comes, no control.... Phone calls, yes we'll send them out. It shows up today... (See photo).... Wrong ends and we'll not what I consider professional local control, from a company who installed 8 chain master hoists and is in the process of installing 3 static hoists for the pa....Eeeeesh. All the raceways are too far from the fixture poles, so it takes 70 some 5' 20amp twists to get the fixtures plugged in...We raised super trooper spots up today, Pluto them in place... The electricians installed 20amp single phase plugs! For fixtures that can use up to 100amps... Lol. It makes me laugh or I'd cry.... The lighting mount walkways have the sprinkler heads installed ( see armoured flex hose), meanwhile, 4' away in the next channel... Where nobody will need to work or walk.... Nothing. If you look in the background on the one picture you'll see a rather large motor system.... This motor is going to pickup 8 Meyer m1d (135kg)!! This motor could pickup my truck ffs, and yes ONE point, the pa will have to be anchored with sash or some bullshit.