Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

[Jared Koopman]

Hello,

I have a youth event coming up soon and just wanting suggestions on sub woofer placement. I have attached a few images to see the layout. The room is roughly 80 x 100 with 14 foot ceilings. The stage is in the corner. The steps to the stage are fixed.

We will be using the house PA system (EAW MK) but we are bringing in subs (10 x QSC KW181) as they have none. We don't have to use all 10, but hey, its a youth event with some dubstep so I am not opposed to it.

My thought was to place 4 on each side of the steps either stacked two by two, or four in a line. My question is, which (stacked or not) would give me the best results based on your experience?

Being that this is a L/R stack, what can I expect for coverage around the room. Since the audience will be in an arc around the stage, is there another way to arrange the subs to direct the energy to the audience and reduce stage noise? Would an "arc" type arrangement in front of the steps work?

Any suggestions? Or just keep it simple and don't worry about it?

Thanks!
Jared

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Hello,

I have a youth event coming up soon and just wanting suggestions on sub woofer placement. I have attached a few images to see the layout. The room is roughly 80 x 100 with 14 foot ceilings. The stage is in the corner. The steps to the stage are fixed.

We will be using the house PA system (EAW MK) but we are bringing in subs (10 x QSC KW181) as they have none. We don't have to use all 10, but hey, its a youth event with some dubstep so I am not opposed to it.

My thought was to place 4 on each side of the steps either stacked two by two, or four in a line. My question is, which (stacked or not) would give me the best results based on your experience?

Being that this is a L/R stack, what can I expect for coverage around the room. Since the audience will be in an arc around the stage, is there another way to arrange the subs to direct the energy to the audience and reduce stage noise? Would an "arc" type arrangement in front of the steps work?

Any suggestions? Or just keep it simple and don't worry about it?

Thanks!
Jared

View attachment 11054View attachment 11055View attachment 11056View attachment 11057

Spent 15 minutes in MAPP, using Meyer 650P to be a generic sub. Your stage is in the upper left corner, dimensions are off a little, all subs face forward and have positive electrical polarity.

We'll start with the full arc of subs. First predictions I did, sorry about not doing all the 40-80Hz 1/3 octaves.


Next is 4 per side, in 1/3 octaves from 40Hz to 80Hz. Read the info in the image as the forum software doesn't attach them in order sometimes...


And finally 2 per side, same technique.


Corner stages suck.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Since this is a DJ event-with no open mics (that should be going to the subs), why not pile all the subs up in the corner at the back of the stage.

When you keep the subs close together there is very little interference and the walls can help to "load" the cabinets and help keep a more even sound in the room.

Since you have 10-I would make 2 rows (one on top of the other) of 4 and then a 3rd row on top of the other 2.

If you could delay the mains a "smidge" it could help-but will probably be fine without it.

 

[Jared Koopman]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Thanks Tim and Ivan. So, my next question is this: In the Arc or 4 in a line, would delaying the outer subs shift the lobs towards the center of the room? I requested access to MAPP myself but until then, what is your experience?

Based on the above basic plots, what would you do in this case, given that its a youth event and they just want it loud? I am inclined to do the 4 subs stacked per side, simply because it appears to have less stage noise.

There is a band so we will have mics on stage.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Thanks Tim and Ivan. So, my next question is this: In the Arc or 4 in a line, would delaying the outer subs shift the lobs towards the center of the room? I requested access to MAPP myself but until then, what is your experience?

Based on the above basic plots, what would you do in this case, given that its a youth event and they just want it loud? I am inclined to do the 4 subs stacked per side, simply because it appears to have less stage noise.

There is a band so we will have mics on stage.

Ok with a band and mics-the situation changes.

Things like that are important to know at the beginning.

Every setup is going to have compromises. And the modeling programs only treat the coverage as if it was in an open field.

As soon as you introduce walls and ceilings and floors, all sorts of things start to change.

It is real easy to get "caught up" in simple wrong answers.

I would probably split the subs and put them next to the walls at the sides of the stage.

 

[Tom Roche]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Ok with a band and mics-the situation changes.
...
I would probably split the subs and put them next to the walls at the sides of the stage.

That's what I would do, too. I've worked with similar stage/room configurations and what Ivan suggests tends to work best in my experience. To be sure—and if you have time—get there early enough to play with sub placement.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Spent 15 minutes in MAPP, using Meyer 650P to be a generic sub. Your stage is in the upper left corner, dimensions are off a little, all subs face forward and have positive electrical polarity.

We'll start with the full arc of subs. First predictions I did, sorry about not doing all the 40-80Hz 1/3 octaves.
View attachment 11068View attachment 11067View attachment 11066

Next is 4 per side, in 1/3 octaves from 40Hz to 80Hz. Read the info in the image as the forum software doesn't attach them in order sometimes...
View attachment 11065View attachment 11064View attachment 11063View attachment 11062

And finally 2 per side, same technique.
View attachment 11061View attachment 11060View attachment 11059View attachment 11058

Corner stages suck.

Tim, you need to turn walls on.

Sent from my SCH-I545

 

[Ales Dravinec]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Silas,

That's how I'd use eight subs.
Referenced to picture and drawings provided, this strikes me as most aesthetically pleasing and offering best audio performance.

You only need 'some' processing power to progressively delay subs as they 'go' outwards.
Dig the complimentary 'free of bass' stage area.

I hope I influenced your train of thoughts to some extent.

With utmost respect

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Silas,

That's how I'd use eight subs.
Referenced to picture and drawings provided, this strikes me as most aesthetically pleasing and offering best audio performance.

You only need 'some' processing power to progressively delay subs as they 'go' outwards.
Dig the complimentary 'free of bass' stage area.

I hope I influenced your train of thoughts to some extent.

With utmost respect


View attachment 11069View attachment 11070View attachment 11071View attachment 11072View attachment 11073View attachment 11074

Hi Ales, I didn't say his plots or designs were bad, just that they are not a very accurate reflection of reality presented that way.

Personally, I'd do a pile of subs on the long wall, downstage left, possibly cardioid to help the stage a bit.

 

[Kevin Maxwell]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Silas,

That's how I'd use eight subs.
Referenced to picture and drawings provided, this strikes me as most aesthetically pleasing and offering best audio performance.

You only need 'some' processing power to progressively delay subs as they 'go' outwards.
Dig the complimentary 'free of bass' stage area.

I hope I influenced your train of thoughts to some extent.

With utmost respect


View attachment 11069View attachment 11070View attachment 11071View attachment 11072View attachment 11073View attachment 11074

Because of the shape of the stage I assume he would place the subs in such a way that the outer subs would be farther away from the audience. And then if you were to use delay on the subs you would progressively delay the subs as they go inward. Since the inward ones are closer to the audience and the outer ones are curved back and farther away you would want them timed so they look like a straight line. For some reason it looks like you have curved them outwards into the audience. Or am I missing something?

 

[Ales Dravinec]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Kevin, all,

I just wanted to quickly draft the setup to check how it would perform. Yes, Subs should be in a straight line left and right from steps.
It is designed as two four fold end-fired arrays with tails close together. It means delay time of units close to steps is relative zero and it (delay) progresses as you count away from steps ... approx 3, 6 and 9 ms for approx 3 ft sub pitch

I personally did the exact setup once, only three fold ... it worked like a fscking charm.

Respectfully

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Tim, you need to turn walls on.

Sent from my SCH-I545

Naw, that's a job for carpenters.

My point was that none of ideas presented would deliver the result he likely wanted, not to design a sub array for him, and that Jared would be ahead to use some prediction/simulation tools.

 

[Steve Garris]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Tim - I'm very interested in this Mapp program. I just filled out their request form, and don't know if this is a free download or a very expensive program. I'm definitely JV, but I would really like to try using this software.

I can't quite read the legend on the right - is Red more SPL and blue less?

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Tim - I'm very interested in this Mapp program. I just filled out their request form, and don't know if this is a free download or a very expensive program. I'm definitely JV, but I would really like to try using this software.

I can't quite read the legend on the right - is Red more SPL and blue less?

Hi Steve-

MAPP is a Meyer product and it's brilliance and limitation is that the database includes only Meyer loudspeakers. For exploring subwoofer arrays I use their 650P because it's about the same size as many 2x18 boxes. It's a free product; you'll get emails about Meyer's upcoming training and education seminars. You'll download a Windows or Mac installer and pretty much just follow the instructions. There are MAPP tutorials online/youtube, and the help files are usually helpful.

There are other sub array simulators that are more brand-agnostic and worthy of exploration. Start here: https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/index.php/en/home

Yes, the legend is red=more, blue=less. I had to resize and resample the original screen caps to meet the attachment limits.

 

[Jared Koopman]

Re: Upcoming youth event - sub-woofer placement suggestions

Update....

So we got there early enough to try a couple of different setups. We ended up stacking 5 on each side. For the time we had this sounded the best in the majority of the seats in the room. It wasn't perfect but they were happy with it.

They wanted the front of the stage clear of anything so that ruled out any arc or other arrangement. We did try and end fire setup and it sound great in a few seats but disappeared where we didnt want it to. The stage was quiet tho...

Thanks for all the help and advice.