What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

[Per Søvik]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

What would be the point?

A little spread of some of the sound avoids the feeling that all the sound is inside your head. Tastes vary, some might want one particular instrument in one ear only with the rest in a quite centered stereo. Sometimes if there is a single instrument that you want quite loud, having it to one side avoids killing the rest of the mix.

 

[brian maddox]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

I've never worked with an artist that demanded a stereo mix. I'm not sure what they would want differently in each ear to begin with. Personally, I'd find a stereo mix more of a distraction than anything. How many times have you set stereo wedges for anyone? What would be the point?

To understand the point requires that you step back and think about what happens when you put IEMs in both ears. We humans hear in stereo ALL the TIME. It's what we're used to. As a result, we naturally are able to separate and differentiate different sounds that are at the same volume based on this LOCATION alone. The brain science behind this actually pretty miraculous stuff, but i won't get into all that right now. Suffice it to say that we all do it, and we don't think about it. It just happens.

As soon as you put IEMs in your ears, your stereoscopic hearing goes away [which is why you instinctively feel closed off from the world] and you're left with what signals you are presented with. if the signals in both ears are identical [MONO] you will often have a significant amount of trouble differentiating different sounds from one another, particularly if they are the same volume and occupy similar frequency ranges. So Guitars will tend to walk on vocal. or Keys will walk on Guitars. That sort of thing.

Now, if we use a STEREO IEM mix, we have the ability to change what each ear hears, and in different proportions. This allows us to 'place' different instruments in different places in our head. I've done experiments on this and it's AMAZING how well our brain can place things in different places. If you pan a signal from left to right in a pair of stereo IEMs, there are at least 10-12 DISTINCT locations that you can differentiate, which means there are 10-12 different places you can pan things to in your head and hear them all clearly. So you could have 10 different guitar players playing, set them all to the same level, and still be able to pick out each one's part very clearly by focusing on that 'area' in your head. Totally amazing stuff. With a MONO mix, 2 guitars becomes difficult and 3 is just mud. This makes it very hard to play as a group as each person just ends up turning up their signal louder than the others so they can hear themselves.

Okay, so that's why stereo is cool and why many people [including me] say it's essential. However, if you're playing in a 3 piece band with one or two vocalists, and you're on a budget, it might not be as big a deal. There just aren't as many things in the same frequency range walking on one another. The group i play with has 3 guitars, drums, bass, keys and usually 4-5 vocalists. For me Stereo is absolutely essential.

Your situation is kind of a bummer though. You've spent good money on your IEM rig, but you're still feeding it a MONO source. It's like buying a 4 cylinder Mustang. It'll still go down the road, but oh the lost potential...

 

[Kevinjames]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Well, we're a 3 piece, me on guitar/vocals, bass player, drummer. So how does stereo work? You can basically take 2 channels or 2 auxes and make them into one stereo signal? TRS? This is the part that I don't get that isn't well explained anywhere. But I tend to be a see it type of person, text doesn't do it unless it's like your explaining it to a 5 year old, LOL.

 

[Mike Horn]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

hook up your PA true stereo
[left to one amp/spkr right to another amp/speaker]

2 sends

hook some audio signal to one channel

spread your speakers 15' apart

turn up the audio panned center

close your eyes

slowly pan the signal full left and full rt several times

now
open you eyes...
feed one amp with one aux signal from the mixer

hook both speakers to the amp

1 send

turn it up

you cant pan it

it is "center" in the 2 speakers

now do it with your iem transmitter
and use either the transmitter or receiver's mono function

rockschool 101...

 

[Kevinjames]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Yes, I understand how stereo works in relation to a 2 speaker setup. The thing I don't understand is how, if I had a mixer that was capable I would be able to run stereo in the IEM's. I know this is basic sh*t to you guys, but I've only been using mixers for about a year and IEM's for about a month. You lost me on the speaker / amp part. I'm an idiot.


edit: So I think what your trying to say is that since the aux signal is mono ring sleeve, it can not run stereo. Now what if the aux send was TRS, is that still not stereo?

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Yes, I understand how stereo works in relation to a 2 speaker setup. The thing I don't understand is how, if I had a mixer that was capable I would be able to run stereo in the IEM's. I know this is basic sh*t to you guys, but I've only been using mixers for about a year and IEM's for about a month. You lost me on the speaker / amp part. I'm an idiot.


edit: So I think what your trying to say is that since the aux signal is mono ring sleeve, it can not run stereo. Now what if the aux send was TRS, is that still not stereo?

Kevin TRS or tip/ring/sleeve is basically the 1/4" version of an XLR connector or what we call a balanced signal. Now this changes when you are talking about headphone output or 1/8" connections from your ipod etc... THAT is where you are getting confused about L + R + ground.

So a TRS from an AUX send is simply a balanced mono send. It still requires TWO AUX sends to create a stereo IEM mix.

 

[Kevinjames]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Kevin TRS or tip/ring/sleeve is basically the 1/4" version of an XLR connector or what we call a balanced signal. Now this changes when you are talking about headphone output or 1/8" connections from your ipod etc... THAT is where you are getting confused about L + R + ground.

So a TRS from an AUX send is simply a balanced mono send. It still requires TWO AUX sends to create a stereo IEM mix.

Gotcha, so even though I'm doing 1 aux to one side of my IEM transmitter and 1 aux to the other side of the transmitter, that's still not stereo? The auxes have to be linked I've read, which my mixer wont do. Is that the issue?

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Gotcha, so even though I'm doing 1 aux to one side of my IEM transmitter and 1 aux to the other side of the transmitter, that's still not stereo? The auxes have to be linked I've read, which my mixer wont do. Is that the issue?

no, your statement is incorrect...

if you run AUX 1 into senn in-ear transmitter side L, and AUX 2 into senn in-ear transmitter side R, you WILL be in stereo. Forget aux "linking" etc... all that that means is whatever you adjust to aux 1, you will have to do the same to aux 2. Linking the auxs means if you adjust aux 1 , aux 2 will follow it.


Personally I've been on ears for 10+ years and NEVER have i needed a stereo image.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Yes, I understand how stereo works in relation to a 2 speaker setup. The thing I don't understand is how, if I had a mixer that was capable I would be able to run stereo in the IEM's. I know this is basic sh*t to you guys, but I've only been using mixers for about a year and IEM's for about a month. You lost me on the speaker / amp part. I'm an idiot.


edit: So I think what your trying to say is that since the aux signal is mono ring sleeve, it can not run stereo. Now what if the aux send was TRS, is that still not stereo?

You are already correctly hooked up tp your IEM transmitter, and unless your receivers are in mono mode, you should have stereo. Now, to utilize this, start by building a mix with the sends on aux1 untill you have a fair balance between the instruments in one ear (or do it with the receiver in mono mode), then copy that to the sends on aux 2. N
ow pull down some of the aux 1 sends a little, and do the same with some aux 2 sends, but not the same ones.
Hey presto. Add salt and seasoning to taste.

 

[brian maddox]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Well, we're a 3 piece, me on guitar/vocals, bass player, drummer. So how does stereo work? You can basically take 2 channels or 2 auxes and make them into one stereo signal? TRS? This is the part that I don't get that isn't well explained anywhere. But I tend to be a see it type of person, text doesn't do it unless it's like your explaining it to a 5 year old, LOL.

shane touched on this, but i'll see if i can make it really clear, 'cause i understand that frustration when people talk about stuff as if everyone knows the basics...

First, just for absolute clarity...

Stereo means nothing more than two different signals being reproduced by two different devices [in your case the left and right IEMs]. Mono means the same signal being reproduced by one, two [or more] devices.

Second, a little about TRS...

TRS plugs CAN be used for stereo signals, where the Tip is Left, the Ring is Right, and the Sleeve is ground. This is typically only used in headphone feeds, however. So your output of your Beltpack is TRS Stereo to go to your TRS IEMs. This signal is Stereo, provided it is being fed by two different signals.

TRS plugs can ALSO be used for balanced line level signals. In this case, Tip and Ring are balanced versions of the same signal, and Sleeve is ground as before. These signals are NOT stereo. It is just a way to run a MONO signal over a longer distance without picking up any weird noises like your local radio station or whatever. This application is nearly always used as a Line Level Input or Output of a mixer. TRS line level jacks on a mixer will still work fine with TS 'guitar' cables, but the noise canceling feature will be disabled. This is not a problem typically for distances under 20' or so.

So, the same connector can be, and often is, used for two totally different applications. And yeah, that makes it pretty easy to get confused.

For your application, in order to get a stereo signal to your IEMs you will need to feed both the Left and the Right input on your IEM transmitter from two different sources. In your case it would be two different Auxes. In this way you could put a different mix of things in your Left ear vs. your Right ear.

Or, your IEM transmitter CAN take only one signal and play it in both your ears the same. This would be MONO. There is a setting for that on your transmitter.

Or, your IEM transmitter can also take two different Auxes in the Left and Right inputs and you can make 2 Mono Mixes for 2 different people. You just need 2 beltpacks set to the same frequency. you can then put the Beltpack into what Sennheiser calls 'Focus' mode [check your manual on how to do that]. Then you just pan one beltpack all the way to the left to get one mix, and the other all the way to the right to get the other mix.

i honestly hope this was helpful and didn't just make you more confused...

 

[Christian Tepfer]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Good point. I don't understand the stereo thing or why it's needed. I put more vocal in the right ear and guitar on the left, and then a little guitar in the right. Is that what most people do?

A stereo mix can help listening at a lower level and still have, let's say, the own voice loud and clear in the center. The own instrument panned center or slighly out of the center. All other instruments and voices would be panned out of the center. This way the mix is loud and clear. Mono means a mix can work but most artists I mix for don't like to go back to mono, after they had a stereo mix.

Let's say you can suck more beautiful in stereo ;-)

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

A stereo mix can help listening at a lower level and still have, let's say, the own voice loud and clear in the center. The own instrument panned center or slighly out of the center. All other instruments and voices would be panned out of the center. This way the mix is loud and clear. Mono means a mix can work but most artists I mix for don't like to go back to mono, after they had a stereo mix.

Let's say you can suck more beautiful in stereo ;-)

The problem is when you "drop an ear" (take one out) which i what I'll often do... Now before anybody goes off blasting me that I'm going to damamge one ear, or compensate for volume etc.. etc.. I do the sound for the band (from the drum kit) - we are ALL on ears, and we are ALL direct, stage is silent, so all I'm really listening to is the house, volume... The bass player is also a capable tech, and is wireless so he goes and listens to the house during soundcheck. SO having your instruments strewen around your stereo in-ear mix isn't an option for me, but might very well be an option for Kevin and others... Personally I think it's "cause we've made it and it CAN (and shall) be done" syndrome....

 

[Kevinjames]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

So the guy who referred to the 4 cylinder mustang is wrong? My transmitter is set to stereo. Aux 1 goes to L Aux 2 goes to right, so therefore I'm running stereo. Correct?

Edit:

Then I re-read Brian M's last post
"For your application, in order to get a stereo signal to your IEMs you will need to feed both the Left and the Right input on your IEM transmitter from two different sources. In your case it would be two different Auxes. In this way you could put a different mix of things in your Left ear vs. your Right ear"

But his first comment in the "mustang on 4 cylinder's" post, he made it sound like it was not possible. That's why I'm confused.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

To understand the point requires that you step back and think about what happens when you put IEMs in both ears. We humans hear in stereo ALL the TIME. It's what we're used to. As a result, we naturally are able to separate and differentiate different sounds that are at the same volume based on this LOCATION alone. The brain science behind this actually pretty miraculous stuff, but i won't get into all that right now. Suffice it to say that we all do it, and we don't think about it. It just happens.

As soon as you put IEMs in your ears, your stereoscopic hearing goes away [which is why you instinctively feel closed off from the world] and you're left with what signals you are presented with. if the signals in both ears are identical [MONO] you will often have a significant amount of trouble differentiating different sounds from one another, particularly if they are the same volume and occupy similar frequency ranges. So Guitars will tend to walk on vocal. or Keys will walk on Guitars. That sort of thing.

Now, if we use a STEREO IEM mix, we have the ability to change what each ear hears, and in different proportions. This allows us to 'place' different instruments in different places in our head. I've done experiments on this and it's AMAZING how well our brain can place things in different places. If you pan a signal from left to right in a pair of stereo IEMs, there are at least 10-12 DISTINCT locations that you can differentiate, which means there are 10-12 different places you can pan things to in your head and hear them all clearly. So you could have 10 different guitar players playing, set them all to the same level, and still be able to pick out each one's part very clearly by focusing on that 'area' in your head. Totally amazing stuff. With a MONO mix, 2 guitars becomes difficult and 3 is just mud. This makes it very hard to play as a group as each person just ends up turning up their signal louder than the others so they can hear themselves.

Okay, so that's why stereo is cool and why many people [including me] say it's essential. However, if you're playing in a 3 piece band with one or two vocalists, and you're on a budget, it might not be as big a deal. There just aren't as many things in the same frequency range walking on one another. The group i play with has 3 guitars, drums, bass, keys and usually 4-5 vocalists. For me Stereo is absolutely essential.

Your situation is kind of a bummer though. You've spent good money on your IEM rig, but you're still feeding it a MONO source. It's like buying a 4 cylinder Mustang. It'll still go down the road, but oh the lost potential...

Thanks Brian for the detailed reasoning behind running stereo. Yes, that makes sense to me. I couldn't imagine making this work well unless the artist has control of the mix themselves to detail it out though. Maybe with a little experience the monitor tech could come up with something that works for most and tweak from there.

As far as being able to do this, boards that can link aux channels would be hugely easier, as you can set the level, and then use a pan control to adjust the position. With two auxes, you can achieve the same goal, but then it's an adjustment of level for each ear instead of a pan control. This would be infinitely harder to get just right.

 

[brian maddox]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

So the guy who referred to the 4 cylinder mustang is wrong? My transmitter is set to stereo. Aux 1 goes to L Aux 2 goes to right, so therefore I'm running stereo. Correct?

Edit:

Then I re-read Brian M's last post
"For your application, in order to get a stereo signal to your IEMs you will need to feed both the Left and the Right input on your IEM transmitter from two different sources. In your case it would be two different Auxes. In this way you could put a different mix of things in your Left ear vs. your Right ear"

But his first comment in the "mustang on 4 cylinder's" post, he made it sound like it was not possible. That's why I'm confused.

sorry, my analogy was confusing. They actually used to sell a 4 cylinder mustang. so you had a super cool sports car, but you weren't really getting everything you could out of it because of the wimpy engine. Running such a nice stereo capable RF IEM system mono is a lot like the same thing. at least that was the point i was trying to make. poorly.

 

[brian maddox]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

Thanks Brian for the detailed reasoning behind running stereo. Yes, that makes sense to me. I couldn't imagine making this work well unless the artist has control of the mix themselves to detail it out though. Maybe with a little experience the monitor tech could come up with something that works for most and tweak from there.

As far as being able to do this, boards that can link aux channels would be hugely easier, as you can set the level, and then use a pan control to adjust the position. With two auxes, you can achieve the same goal, but then it's an adjustment of level for each ear instead of a pan control. This would be infinitely harder to get just right.

You are actually correct on all counts. To your first point, this is why Personal Monitor Mixing systems have become so popular. With these, each musician gets a small mixer that they can set level and pans for their mix.

To your second point, i was around when the IEM revolution first started and there were a LOT of bands using IEMs with monitor engineers running them off two mono sends [since all the monitor consoles at the time were designed for wedges] and making stereo adjustments by twiddling two knobs. Nor ideal, but certainly doable.

 

[Kevinjames]

Re: What do you guys think of this live IEM RIG

sorry, my analogy was confusing. They actually used to sell a 4 cylinder mustang. so you had a super cool sports car, but you weren't really getting everything you could out of it because of the wimpy engine. Running such a nice stereo capable RF IEM system mono is a lot like the same thing. at least that was the point i was trying to make. poorly.

I understood the Mustang thing. My father bought me a 1976 camaro, but with a frign straight 6 in it for my first car. So I thought you were saying it was not possible to run what I had in stereo, that's what I thought you meant.