Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Thanks for your concern...Ill make sure I add those items to my rider you moron...
Thanks for your concern...Ill make sure I add those items to my rider you moron...
When L21-30 just isn't big enough
- Thread starter Rick Stansby
- Start date
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Oh, you're right, that was a moronic thing to say. I apologize. *I thought* you were a BE. Let me rephrase that.
Scott, apparently when it comes to electrical distribution and safety, it *is* your first rodeo.
Oh, you're right, that was a moronic thing to say. I apologize. *I thought* you were a BE. Let me rephrase that.
Scott, apparently when it comes to electrical distribution and safety, it *is* your first rodeo.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Go back to mixing your bar gigs, and Ill go back to my shows with my fucked up ac.
Just a little background on me, In high school 4 year in electrical class. Out of high school I worked with an electrician wiring house and commercial properties. I was going into the field then I discovered audio...
I have been on by own doing audio for 16 years now. Owning a "Full Time" working sound company. Not weekend warrior! I don't have another job, just this one. Must be doing something right huh?
To make sure I was not talking shit I just got off the phone with two different electrician buddies of mine and presented to them what it is I do with L14-30's. I said if i have an L14-30 running to an amp rack and I shut one leg down what would happen. That said nothing! They did say it was code which I am not arguing about. Don't forget Im running 120, not 240...
Picture this. You have a double duplex outlet box (quad bod) You have 2 sets of edison's in it. You want to feed that with two 20 amp circuits. You share the neutral and ground. Same thing as I am doing....
Once again not auguring the code or why it's there. Since it is code I will link those breakers back together. Because it's code...
Once again Im done with this thread. Peace out!
Go back to mixing your bar gigs, and Ill go back to my shows with my fucked up ac.
Just a little background on me, In high school 4 year in electrical class. Out of high school I worked with an electrician wiring house and commercial properties. I was going into the field then I discovered audio...
I have been on by own doing audio for 16 years now. Owning a "Full Time" working sound company. Not weekend warrior! I don't have another job, just this one. Must be doing something right huh?
To make sure I was not talking shit I just got off the phone with two different electrician buddies of mine and presented to them what it is I do with L14-30's. I said if i have an L14-30 running to an amp rack and I shut one leg down what would happen. That said nothing! They did say it was code which I am not arguing about. Don't forget Im running 120, not 240...
Picture this. You have a double duplex outlet box (quad bod) You have 2 sets of edison's in it. You want to feed that with two 20 amp circuits. You share the neutral and ground. Same thing as I am doing....
Once again not auguring the code or why it's there. Since it is code I will link those breakers back together. Because it's code...
Once again Im done with this thread. Peace out!
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
P.S. I don't rent Penske. I own the truck with the Fire extinguishers in them...
P.S. I don't rent Penske. I own the truck with the Fire extinguishers in them...
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Scott, Ryan,
I hope the OP got the answer he was looking for.
If you two are done romping all over this thread, maybe we can find out.
Scotty,
I understand perfectly well what you want to do. Now you understand me: I don't give a shit I you were doing this still in vivo. Discussions about electrical that violate code end in Varsity after the right answer is given. If you want to build some crazy nonsense, fine, but please don't tell me about it. If you want to speculate on electrical, there is a sub forum for that. Meanwhile, your ego is not going to make it right, no matter how much you want to show the world your dick.
Ryan,
You are right. Everyone knows you're right. Don't worry about it. Having a personal fight with Scott is just going to make you both look dumb. He'll go forever, he's just like that, it's cool. He's actually a good guy and runs a tight company up in MA.
You guys can fight it out in PMs if you like, but any more here and I'm going to prune it right out of this thread.
Scott, Ryan,
I hope the OP got the answer he was looking for.
If you two are done romping all over this thread, maybe we can find out.
Scotty,
I understand perfectly well what you want to do. Now you understand me: I don't give a shit I you were doing this still in vivo. Discussions about electrical that violate code end in Varsity after the right answer is given. If you want to build some crazy nonsense, fine, but please don't tell me about it. If you want to speculate on electrical, there is a sub forum for that. Meanwhile, your ego is not going to make it right, no matter how much you want to show the world your dick.
Ryan,
You are right. Everyone knows you're right. Don't worry about it. Having a personal fight with Scott is just going to make you both look dumb. He'll go forever, he's just like that, it's cool. He's actually a good guy and runs a tight company up in MA.
You guys can fight it out in PMs if you like, but any more here and I'm going to prune it right out of this thread.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
I apologize for the snarky comments, but I consider electrical work serious business. Some may think the NEC is too restrictive for reasons unknown to them, but it's generally more lenient than those in Europe.
The claim that "nothing would happen" is only true with regard to when the equipment, wiring, and wiring devices are 100% in working order. In non-working order, who knows. I wish Lee Patzius were here to comment, as he seems to be the expert on situations that can possibly arise that you'd never even dream of.
Additionally, if the OP followed Scott's advice WRT non common trip circuit breakers, and connected the equipment in a delta configuration (phase to phase), when one phase would trip, the (apparently) de-energized conductor would actually remain energized as the equipment connected to it would still have one energized phase connected to their respective input wiring. Imagine touching the neutral side of device while your the only path to ground and the phase conductor is still connected to it's input.
While nothing bad would happen to his equipment, the potential exists for someone else not "in-the-know" to receive an unexpected dose of current. Maybe more dangerous is the case of an actual fault and not just an over-current situation.
I've refrained from name calling, and I've only spoke up in the interests of the unknowings' safety. In the event of an electrical shock (and/or fire), while admittedly snarky, the defibrillator and extinguisher might lessen the court damages due to good faith.
I'll leave it at that, and sorry to everyone for taking the discussion off topic (I guess?).
I apologize for the snarky comments, but I consider electrical work serious business. Some may think the NEC is too restrictive for reasons unknown to them, but it's generally more lenient than those in Europe.
The claim that "nothing would happen" is only true with regard to when the equipment, wiring, and wiring devices are 100% in working order. In non-working order, who knows. I wish Lee Patzius were here to comment, as he seems to be the expert on situations that can possibly arise that you'd never even dream of.
Additionally, if the OP followed Scott's advice WRT non common trip circuit breakers, and connected the equipment in a delta configuration (phase to phase), when one phase would trip, the (apparently) de-energized conductor would actually remain energized as the equipment connected to it would still have one energized phase connected to their respective input wiring. Imagine touching the neutral side of device while your the only path to ground and the phase conductor is still connected to it's input.
While nothing bad would happen to his equipment, the potential exists for someone else not "in-the-know" to receive an unexpected dose of current. Maybe more dangerous is the case of an actual fault and not just an over-current situation.
I've refrained from name calling, and I've only spoke up in the interests of the unknowings' safety. In the event of an electrical shock (and/or fire), while admittedly snarky, the defibrillator and extinguisher might lessen the court damages due to good faith.
I'll leave it at that, and sorry to everyone for taking the discussion off topic (I guess?).
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Scott, My boss talked to six2, and their prices are pretty reasonable, even with the breakers. Thanks again. We also have seen a nice design from Indu-electronics. It gives us the dual L21-30 inlets, and all the outlets we need in 2 rack spaces. We are waiting on a price quote for that one.
Scott, My boss talked to six2, and their prices are pretty reasonable, even with the breakers. Thanks again. We also have seen a nice design from Indu-electronics. It gives us the dual L21-30 inlets, and all the outlets we need in 2 rack spaces. We are waiting on a price quote for that one.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Silas you make a lot of good points, but the owner of the company has settled on having 4 amps per rack, and sometimes you just can't argue with the guy with the money. Me and my manager wanted 3 amps per rack for a while, and our friends in Reno are running 2 amps per rack.
We have seen the clair racks with 3 amps each, and up to 3 racks stacked up on a single caster board. That is certainly a trick setup, but it would be a fair amount more expensive for the racks, if nothing else.
Right now on bigger shows we use 4@amp racks SR and SL 1 and 2. In general we will run 1 amp rack per side, and on the biggest Reggae show we do each year we will only need one more sub amp on top of these 2 new racks.
It sort of comes down to our existing infrastructure as well. We have lots of L21-30 outlets and cabling.
If we were starting from scratch, your solution would be perfect.
Silas you make a lot of good points, but the owner of the company has settled on having 4 amps per rack, and sometimes you just can't argue with the guy with the money. Me and my manager wanted 3 amps per rack for a while, and our friends in Reno are running 2 amps per rack.
We have seen the clair racks with 3 amps each, and up to 3 racks stacked up on a single caster board. That is certainly a trick setup, but it would be a fair amount more expensive for the racks, if nothing else.
Right now on bigger shows we use 4@amp racks SR and SL 1 and 2. In general we will run 1 amp rack per side, and on the biggest Reggae show we do each year we will only need one more sub amp on top of these 2 new racks.
It sort of comes down to our existing infrastructure as well. We have lots of L21-30 outlets and cabling.
If we were starting from scratch, your solution would be perfect.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Bennett, I did get my answer thanks. It's great to have people to bounce things off of.
Regarding the other argument, of course it is code to have linked breakers. It is very common for sound companies to break these links.
I remember about 10 years ago, when Vertecs were new, a local company combined theirs with a the rest of the vertecs on the west coast for a Kiss show in Southern Cal. The system tech told me about breaking the links, and he told me about how they were popping breakers during the show, pushing the system to the limit. He was glad that he was only losing 1 leg of each L21-30 at a time.
This story does not change the code, or the potential (if rare) safety issues. It only points out that lots of people do it. Slowly we are learning and spreading knowledge, and these safety hazards are being reduced.
FWIW, we are not going to un-link our breakers.
Bennett, I did get my answer thanks. It's great to have people to bounce things off of.
Regarding the other argument, of course it is code to have linked breakers. It is very common for sound companies to break these links.
I remember about 10 years ago, when Vertecs were new, a local company combined theirs with a the rest of the vertecs on the west coast for a Kiss show in Southern Cal. The system tech told me about breaking the links, and he told me about how they were popping breakers during the show, pushing the system to the limit. He was glad that he was only losing 1 leg of each L21-30 at a time.
This story does not change the code, or the potential (if rare) safety issues. It only points out that lots of people do it. Slowly we are learning and spreading knowledge, and these safety hazards are being reduced.
FWIW, we are not going to un-link our breakers.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Hey guys, I too have some customized Motion Labs made for our distros. But more often than not, I run into brain donor electricians during my many installs.
While trying to explain that their pipe does not constitute a proper ground scheme for my sub panel . (one set screw rattles out from my nutty subwoofers being violent, and poof, no ground)
And not that that means poof, but it is a loss of safety , a loss of noise drain, and a loss of piece of mind.
For the past few years I have always been able to pull out my ipod touch and go right to the code and show them.
Great little (huge!) app called ElectricalPro It has every applet and formula you could want for those days your brain is just a bit slow.
It also has a copy of the code built right in, with easy search-ability.
Hey guys, I too have some customized Motion Labs made for our distros. But more often than not, I run into brain donor electricians during my many installs.
While trying to explain that their pipe does not constitute a proper ground scheme for my sub panel . (one set screw rattles out from my nutty subwoofers being violent, and poof, no ground)
And not that that means poof, but it is a loss of safety , a loss of noise drain, and a loss of piece of mind.
For the past few years I have always been able to pull out my ipod touch and go right to the code and show them.
Great little (huge!) app called ElectricalPro It has every applet and formula you could want for those days your brain is just a bit slow.
It also has a copy of the code built right in, with easy search-ability.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Just because your particular setup only has line to neutral loads doesn't mean that you can't plug in a device connected line to line. What if you have a subrented piece of gear with line to line loads (like a motor distro with 3-phase motors)? If you lose one hot leg, the motor might still keep turning. Or you lose the return path for the amplifier running at 208V, so the amplifier is off but the other phase is still hot. This is the primary reason that the poles of the breakers must be linked, and why you shouldn't cut those links.
Just because your particular setup only has line to neutral loads doesn't mean that you can't plug in a device connected line to line. What if you have a subrented piece of gear with line to line loads (like a motor distro with 3-phase motors)? If you lose one hot leg, the motor might still keep turning. Or you lose the return path for the amplifier running at 208V, so the amplifier is off but the other phase is still hot. This is the primary reason that the poles of the breakers must be linked, and why you shouldn't cut those links.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Yes, and in that example, you should still use a two-pole breaker. Common neutral, common trip! I am well aware that the old 'two breakers on a piece of 12-3' is done constantly in homes, but it is terrible practice that is finally being clamped down on.
Yes, and in that example, you should still use a two-pole breaker. Common neutral, common trip! I am well aware that the old 'two breakers on a piece of 12-3' is done constantly in homes, but it is terrible practice that is finally being clamped down on.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Do we really have the bandwidth to do Power Distro 101? Does anyone here actually carry a C-10 and undrstand audio?
Ken
Do we really have the bandwidth to do Power Distro 101? Does anyone here actually carry a C-10 and undrstand audio?
Ken
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
I am pretty sure he meant al type L14-30 UL NEMA type connector 12aug 4 conductor via to dual duplex, dual circuit, quad edison. 2 hots shared neutral, shared ground. Perfectly fine in my eyes. So long as both hots have breakers attached.
I am pretty sure he meant al type L14-30 UL NEMA type connector 12aug 4 conductor via to dual duplex, dual circuit, quad edison. 2 hots shared neutral, shared ground. Perfectly fine in my eyes. So long as both hots have breakers attached.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Perfectly fine... with a common trip breaker.
Perfectly fine... with a common trip breaker.
Re: When L21-30 just isn't big enough
Yep, that's the crux of this biscuit. It's all there in NEC 240.
Yep, that's the crux of this biscuit. It's all there in NEC 240.