When setup is important?

[Eric Cagle]

Re: When setup is important?

The comb filtering sounds progressively worse the higher frequency you go. Since you are already running biamped you might want to try turning off one of the tweeters on each side and see if the sound clears up a little. I tend to notice comb filtering starting a little above 2k really bothering me. The horn on the QRX 212 is pretty stout and if the 75 degree pattern covers the area you might benefit from the extra 12's in the low mid. You should be able to balance the 12's with the driverack output and EQ if needed.

Just my thoughts.

 

[David Morison]

Re: When setup is important?

Although we continue to miss the point of my post. I have no doubt that if I sit down with the proper tools that I can figure out how to best use the equipment that they have, in this particular room. The question remains "should I".

I think part of the answer to the "Should I" question involves accurately defining the extent of the problem.
By throwing out a lot of suggestions, people may help with that part of the exercise, even if the bulk of any remedial work might take a different form in the end after any modelling etc. you might do.

And just to add to the speculation, have you been able to ascertain yet what the orientation of the horns currently is?
I haven't used that exact box but have read various posts on fora suggesting that rotating the horns so the "down" tilt becomes an "out" tilt when using flat fronted or tight packed boxes can help mitigate (albeit not completely solve) combfiltering, which if it has been done in your case may be part of why it doesn't seem as bad as your initial visual impression led you to expect?

Anyhoo, back to the "should I" part, as well as looking at what potential improvements you can actually make to the sound, I'd have to suggest trying to get a feel for what other benefits (beyond your own satisfaction at a job well done) you might realise.
For example, would improving the overall sound of the room likely attract better bands/more bands/more drink sales etc.? Allow you to run at lower SPL's improving neighbourhood relations (not that you mentioned that being an issue, just trying to widen the net of possible benefits here)?
Assuming a non-infinite budget, would the cost of any improvements be better spent elsewhere - maybe improving mic selection, upgrading desk/monitoring/some other aspect of the system?

Without potential improvement in some other area, I'd be reluctant to ask an owner to invest in something that only I would ever notice.
Maybe try out the "one box unplugged" for a low/moderate volume show and get the owner/manager alongside you to see if they notice the improvement anywhere near as much as you might?

HTH,
David.

 

[Gary Phillips]

Re: When setup is important?

The system has a Driverack PA (not my choice) which limits what I can do with any parallel processing such as dual PA, and since it is an installed system, I would not move to any configuration where someone other than me has to do anything other than push the main fader up.

The LF crossover is roll my own, and the HF crossover is based on the EV recommendations. The system eq is roll my own. The limiters are set fairly conservatively, but I have never even gotten close to engaging the limiters in the drive rack.

As I said, I would not be making any changes without some modeling, but my real inclination would be to go to one per side at the stage, with good downtilt to cover the dance floor in front of the stage,and then move the second pair out about 50 feet as a second line of delays. There are still the existing delays all the way in the back in the pool room.

Although we continue to miss the point of my post. I have no doubt that if I sit down with the proper tools that I can figure out how to best use the equipment that they have, in this particular room. The question remains "should I".

Having been in the room several times, including one unfortunate Sunday that I brought my 83 year old mother into the venue for a Sunday afternoon dinner during setup for the School of Rock festivities, I think that you should consider the following:

1. Rehang the 212's sideways, focus 2 of them on the dance floor directly in front of the stage, and focus the other two slightly further out toward where the tables begin. Your point about not needing "full frontal assault" all the way to the pool room (or into the bar area off stage right) is well taken and lowering the level in the area of the server station between the table area and the pool room will be most appreciated by the servers. The delay speakers in the rear portion of the table room and the pool room could then be used to "fill in the cracks" as it were. I've been directly in front of the stage during an "all processors" band set, and there is a distinct hole in the house system coverage there, and with no stage amps or monitors the sound is nearly all drums.

2. It's a shame that you're hampered with the FOH gear being installed in what appears to have been the video closet in the earlier incarnations of the building. It would be great if you could either get it relocated or obtain a console with remote capabilities. With the existing setup I'd rather have FOH in the "DJ" booth adjacent to the stage than where it is now.

Just my $.02!
Gary.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Gary,

Your post is more in line with what I picture. Turning 2 of the 212's sideways at the stage would cover the dance floor nicely and open up the wings of the stage visually.

I think pointing any boxes from the stage to the back of the room will be interfered with by the line of TV's. I think the other 2 212's above that line of TV's also pointed down to cover the table area would be better than trying to cover that zone from the stage.

And don't forget you always have the option of eating in the dining room where I can close the door. (Some of the rock of all ages bands were pretty good, others were painful, fortunately only one out of the whole series left me with a never want to see them again feeling. The final night with the DJs was a whole different story.)

 

[Brian Bolly]

Re: When setup is important?

Other than the replacing the processor (which I know that system had the EV processor before - it must have been lost in the renovation), I think a quick measurement of what a single box is doing in the room would tell you most of what you need to know and which direction to go to improve that system.

Before even touching the boxes, how about sticking a mic in front of just one of them and measuring to find where the -6dB point actually lies within the coverage area (obviously above X frequency), given the current rigging position.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: When setup is important?

Other than the replacing the processor (which I know that system had the EV processor before - it must have been lost in the renovation), I think a quick measurement of what a single box is doing in the room would tell you most of what you need to know and which direction to go to improve that system.

Before even touching the boxes, how about sticking a mic in front of just one of them and measuring to find where the -6dB point actually lies within the coverage area (obviously above X frequency), given the current rigging position.

I was limited by how long I could make the ugly noises, so I did not look really hard at off axis measurements. One of these nights when I am still coherent at 2:00am I will take some more.

But by listening it has become pretty clear which parts of the room are not being effectively covered, and the brute force nature of the system (covering the entire room from the stage) makes the levels extremely uneven in the main room.

A number of times people have come up to complain about not being able to hear vocals, and on questioning them find out they were standing directly under the speakers. Sorry dude, sound comes out the front not the bottom of the boxes.

 

[Greg Cameron]

Re: When setup is important?

A number of times people have come up to complain about not being able to hear vocals, and on questioning them find out they were standing directly under the speakers. Sorry dude, sound comes out the front not the bottom of the boxes.

I had that happen a couple of years ago in my venue. Folks against the stage apron couldn't hear the vocals as they were just outside the coverage pattern of the horns. I picked up a set of EV ZXA1s for lip fills right under my hangs. I only route vocals to them from a matrix send which is feed from the vocal subgroups. Worked like charm. Those little boxes have a lot of getup and go for their size, especially when doing vocals only duty and high passed at 200Hz. The lows from the main hangs wrap around just fine, so there was no need to run the ZXs any lower.