Working for Cheap

Bennett Prescott

Just This Guy, You Know?
Staff member
Jan 10, 2011
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Wallingford, CT
www.bennettprescott.com
Re: Working for Cheap

I agree with the sentiment to a point. That said, the comparisons of McDonalds and Ruth's Chris aren't completely fair. Both are two large corporations one is definitely ''super-sized'' while the other is at least nationally reknown. This allows them to span several local markets and syphon off moderate profits from many places. A sole proprietor does not have this luxury.



Another thing to consider is that while I probably could start up an even cheaper version of McDonalds, I probably couldn't do it without violating FDA regulations. The sound business doesn't have this problem, hence bottom-feeders.



That said, if you are a bottom feeder, and you grow, eventually you run up against other problems, such as DOT regs and other complications, mainly put in place by federal or state regulatory bodies. It makes it very challenging to grow and establish a company, and these are non-market forces.



I also think there is a big difference in the price scales between sound production and photography. Most (good) wedding photographers are charging between $2500 and $6000 per wedding. They do 30-40 weddings a year and make a pretty decent living. The overhead is pretty low (requiring about $10k in equipment, tops) the ROI is good on the most expensive parts (lenses) though poor on camera bodies but the camera doesn't matter anyway right? And the fixed costs are pretty manageable with digital photograph (Internet connection) and you have an advantage with variable ones (on-line storage, prints, CDs) cause when you buy in bulk those items generally get cheaper.



For live sound, if we are talking about just making a living at on your own, pick your salary, add 50% for benefits, expenses and 10% of that total for reinvestment.



Divide that by the number of days you want to work in the year and that's what your gigs should be paying. Obviously, the salary part is very flexible, and you have to be realistic about it. But let's just take the national average. Wikipedia puts the median at about $50k and assume 5 work days, a mix of weekend gigs with other Public Address type stuff during the week, figure four weeks vacation, so 220 gigs a year (wouldn't that be nice).



So your revenue has to be $75k + expenses + 10%.



Quick breakdown of yearly expenses:

Fuel (figure average 50 mile commute to gig) $6400 (assuming 12MPG in a truck of some sort)

Supplies (gaff, XLR cables, expendable items) $10 per gig avg $2200

Repair and maintenance (vehicle and equipment) $1000

Business Loan for equipment and vehicle (maybe you already own the equipment, but you have to pay for it some how, so you ether spend this much on average per year on replacement gear, or have spent it on what you have already) $8000



So grand total, that's $92,000 + 10% = ~$102,000. Divided by 220 gigs is about $500 average for a gig.



Now everyone knows, keeping a steady pace of 5 gigs a week would probably be difficult. And a $50k salary isn't bad, but it's not the best thing for what I consider a pretty tough job. I've probably left out a bunch of expenses so maybe it's a little more. That said, I've found with pricing around that ballpark, there is just not even close to enough work, and that's not considering the ''real'' bottom feeders. We got guys that will do a local stage a festival for $200-300 a day and others that will bring a large 4 KF850/SB1000 per side rig from 80 miles away for $800 (with consoles, and outboard)!



 
Re: Working for Cheap

A great article from a photographer's perspective that applies equally to our work in the pro sound industry. Thanks Phil Graham for clueing me in to it.



http://www.zarias.com/cheap-photographers-only-kill-themselves-not-the-industry/



Another interesting one, from the same source:

http://fairtradephotographer.blogspot.com/2010/03/microstock-why-would-reputable-company.html



Great articles to help explain why you're ''so expensive''.

You can only be cheap for so long. Like the cheap rental guy. It is all ''extra'' money-untill they have to start replacing diaphragms/woofers-broken mic stands-stolen gear-repair bills and so forth.



Back when I had my business I moved the reconing to my current employer. I was doing a lot (read mostly) mail order reconing. There weren't as many people doing back then.



When they started examining the real cost of doing reconing they decided to raise the prices by 30% across the board.



I thought that would kill it. But I had loyal customers who liked the work I did, and they paid the difference
icon_eek.gif
. WOW if I had been making 30% extra all those years
icon_rolleyes.gif
.



I run into people all the time who say they wish I was still in business-because they liked my prices. Well that is part of the reason I am NOT in business any more-I could not (or would not charge enough) to make a good living.



That is also why I stay away from all money issues with my employeers. I don't want to kill their business-so I can still have a job.



If you don't make money-you will not be in business to support the product/work you do later as needed.



There is nothing wrong with making a profit and charging fairly for your services.



If it was so easy-then anybody could do it.



 
Re: Working for Cheap

BOTTOM FEEDERS UNITE ! HANG YOUR UNWORTHY HEADS IN SHAME..BURN YOUR YAMMY CLUBS...TOSS YOUR CARVIN AMPS INTO THE DEPTHS OF THE SEA...FOR YOU ARE THE SCUM OF SOUND REINFORCEMENT...AND YOU DESERVE A FIREY DEATH !!



icon_rolleyes.gif
Ryan....I answer in jest man.!!



Quote: said:
$50k salary isn't bad, but it's not the best thing for what I consider a pretty tough job.



Perhaps...but the market doesn't give a damn. There's work to be had - high and low, and in this economy, ten percent of something is better than one hundred percent of nothing for many people. (I alone, am defender of the unworthy and stand bare assed before you, bald and unafraid
icon_cool.gif
)



Times have changed (oh weeewy?) It's time to be smart, reinvent, reinvest, rethink ideas, strip down, streamline, adapt, improvise and get after it. What we think we're worth obviously isn't always what others think we're worth. It's not about truth, it's about perception, which, of course, is unfortunate bullshit but....



So, grab your Behringer, your tired, worn rat fuzz cabinets and mount up, you low life ankle biters...(better yet, toss the Behringers) and grab the gusto of long hours, little pay, sore muscles, flat tires, smoky bars and warm beers. It ain't that bad.



As for me and my house, we will continue to be just above ankle biter, what I term ''groin level'' sound reinforcement (brought about by good looks, charm and EV QRX) and be damned proud to work regularly, come in late, kiss the momma, down a cheese sammich and head to bed.



And just to piss you holier than thou ''other'' BBS boys off, I may even add a Presonus 24-4 ...
icon_eek.gif




god bless us....everyone

 
Re: Working for Cheap

BOTTOM FEEDERS UNITE ! HANG YOUR UNWORTHY HEADS IN SHAME..BURN YOUR YAMMY CLUBS...TOSS YOUR CARVIN AMPS INTO THE DEPTHS OF THE SEA...FOR YOU ARE THE SCUM OF SOUND REINFORCEMENT...AND YOU DESERVE A FIREY DEATH !!



Only if we can get a really cheap photographer
icon_wink.gif




Quote: said:
(I alone, am defender of the unworthy and stand bare assed before you, bald and unafraid
icon_cool.gif
)



Thanks. I'll need years of expensive therapy to get that image out of my head. Now put your damn clothes on, hippie.
icon_lol.gif




Quote: said:
Times have changed (oh weeewy?) It's time to be smart, reinvent, reinvest, rethink ideas, strip down, streamline, adapt, improvise and get after it.



Aren't you supposed to have a power point presentation with animated bullet points for each of those? And you left out the word ''overcome''.



Seriously, though, people work for different prices because they have different income needs from their ''audio endeavour.'' Even in the bigger leagues there are plenty of guys/companies who'll work way too cheap. I've watched a couple of companies under-price themselves out of business. When you start out by underbidding established events by 40% and telling the client that everyone else they've ever worked with has screwed them, you've painted yourself into a corner; you'll never get another dime from that client and when the expenses mount, you have no way to increase the immediate revenue stream. I'm watching another company do exactly this right now.



Some production company owners are still in it for the 'glamor'. They haven't done enough shows in the rain, loaded out down snow covered fire escapes, rode out microburst thunderstorms that flatten roofs, dodged charging rodeo critters... There ain't much glamor in this biz but there can be immense satisfaction when the house lights go down, the drummer counts off the first song and you find the hair on the back of your neck standing in the first bar of the song. That magic is addictive, and some people will under bid to get more shows and hope they feel that magic again (or for the first time).



Certainly nobody is in this for the 'big' money. If you look at what a typical regional ties up in gear, warehousing, transportation and support, most owners would be 'big' money ahead to invest in something else. How the smaller players make a 'real' profit based on the fees I see every time a ''how much should I charge...'' comes up, I don't know.



Have fun, good luck.



Tim Mc

 
Re: Working for Cheap

BOTTOM FEEDERS UNITE ! HANG YOUR UNWORTHY HEADS IN SHAME..BURN YOUR YAMMY CLUBS...TOSS YOUR CARVIN AMPS INTO THE DEPTHS OF THE SEA...FOR YOU ARE THE SCUM OF SOUND REINFORCEMENT...AND YOU DESERVE A FIREY DEATH !!



icon_rolleyes.gif
Ryan....I answer in jest man.!!



Quote: said:
$50k salary isn't bad, but it's not the best thing for what I consider a pretty tough job.



Perhaps...but the market doesn't give a damn. There's work to be had - high and low, and in this economy, ten percent of something is better than one hundred percent of nothing for many people. (I alone, am defender of the unworthy and stand bare assed before you, bald and unafraid
icon_cool.gif
)



Times have changed (oh weeewy?) It's time to be smart, reinvent, reinvest, rethink ideas, strip down, streamline, adapt, improvise and get after it. What we think we're worth obviously isn't always what others think we're worth. It's not about truth, it's about perception, which, of course, is unfortunate bullshit but....



So, grab your Behringer, your tired, worn rat fuzz cabinets and mount up, you low life ankle biters...(better yet, toss the Behringers) and grab the gusto of long hours, little pay, sore muscles, flat tires, smoky bars and warm beers. It ain't that bad.



As for me and my house, we will continue to be just above ankle biter, what I term ''groin level'' sound reinforcement (brought about by good looks, charm and EV QRX) and be damned proud to work regularly, come in late, kiss the momma, down a cheese sammich and head to bed.



And just to piss you holier than thou ''other'' BBS boys off, I may even add a Presonus 24-4 ...
icon_eek.gif




god bless us....everyone



HI just hurt my throat laughing at this Steve! You are hurtin' me!



I kinda gotta agree though. I have a wife, 5 kids, a brain condition, and no health insurance. It's not like I can just say, ''Well golly, those guys are right. I should be charging a lot more. Since the economy here won't allow for that, so I guess I better quit. Even though I've made more money than I ever have before at a regular day job the 7 years, I should sell my gear and just go pick from ALL the jobs there are to choose from here in Central Indiana!''



 
Re: Working for Cheap

Hey Joseph, great to see you here man.



Truth is...it's truth.



Keep em' rockin' bro. I'll be out to see you when I get free from remodel land.



Steve
 
Re: Working for Cheap

HI just hurt my throat laughing at this Steve! You are hurtin' me!



I kinda gotta agree though. I have a wife, 5 kids, a brain condition, and no health insurance. It's not like I can just say, ''Well golly, those guys are right. I should be charging a lot more. Since the economy here won't allow for that, so I guess I better quit. Even though I've made more money than I ever have before at a regular day job the 7 years, I should sell my gear and just go pick from ALL the jobs there are to choose from here in Central Indiana!''



More power to you. But my guess is that you are very open to risk, or your wife has health benefits if you are comfortable making $200/day.



I'm not saying it can't be done, but I would not want to try to run a business (on the table) for $200 day. A $50k salary is I think very fair for the stresses (mind and body) that live sound provides. Cause here's what it boils down to, if you have the skills to do this job well, those skills could make you a lot of money elsewhere. Just sayin.
 
Re: Working for Cheap

I see alot of issues that can be best addressed by educating the consumer. I cant tell you the many times I have been to ''bid blind'' by county fairs and festivals. Sometimes they spec overkill, sometimes Not enough rig for the gig. We as proffesionals need to be involed with the event seminars, etc.

Unfortunatly sometimes the consumer doesnt want to be educated or even care about good sound, its all about the cost. Period.







Right now in this economy, I really have to take what i can get. Am I willing to kill myself to get it no, but I am ready to cut a deal.



More than anything else cheap gear is what has been killing us. Back in the day cheap amps cost a buck a watt and console with more than a 3 band eq and 2 busses cost @ least $100 to $150 per channel. Now a kid with 5K from mommy and daddy can start a sound co with Behringer and honestly sound as good as the 15K I had invested in peavey back in '92.



I got out of the bar buisness 10 years ago, the pay is the same it was in '92. Which was the same in '82. Now I see bar guys getting into doing what should have been decent paying gigs for stupid money, and making me look like a horses ass because i charge a living wage.



Times are tough and even tougher in the suburban markets, and I got 2 car payments, a house payment, a health insureance payment (and i stil have to pay $300 a month out of pocket for my wifes meds , because they arent covered) and Shop overhead.



 
Re: Working for Cheap

I see alot of issues that can be best addressed by educating the consumer. I cant tell you the many times I have been to ''bid blind'' by county fairs and festivals. Sometimes they spec overkill, sometimes Not enough rig for the gig. We as proffesionals need to be involed with the event seminars, etc.

Unfortunatly sometimes the consumer doesnt want to be educated or even care about good sound, its all about the cost. Period.







Right now in this economy, I really have to take what i can get. Am I willing to kill myself to get it no, but I am ready to cut a deal.



More than anything else cheap gear is what has been killing us. Back in the day cheap amps cost a buck a watt and console with more than a 3 band eq and 2 busses cost @ least $100 to $150 per channel. Now a kid with 5K from mommy and daddy can start a sound co with Behringer and honestly sound as good as the 15K I had invested in peavey back in '92.



I got out of the bar buisness 10 years ago, the pay is the same it was in '92. Which was the same in '82. Now I see bar guys getting into doing what should have been decent paying gigs for stupid money, and making me look like a horses ass because i charge a living wage.



Times are tough and even tougher in the suburban markets, and I got 2 car payments, a house payment, a health insureance payment (and i stil have to pay $300 a month out of pocket for my wifes meds , because they arent covered) and Shop overhead.



Yep, I feel you.

 
Re: Working for Cheap

I see alot of issues that can be best addressed by educating the consumer. I cant tell you the many times I have been to ''bid blind'' by county fairs and festivals. Sometimes they spec overkill, sometimes Not enough rig for the gig. We as proffesionals need to be involed with the event seminars, etc.

Unfortunatly sometimes the consumer doesnt want to be educated or even care about good sound, its all about the cost. Period.







Right now in this economy, I really have to take what i can get. Am I willing to kill myself to get it no, but I am ready to cut a deal.



More than anything else cheap gear is what has been killing us. Back in the day cheap amps cost a buck a watt and console with more than a 3 band eq and 2 busses cost @ least $100 to $150 per channel. Now a kid with 5K from mommy and daddy can start a sound co with Behringer and honestly sound as good as the 15K I had invested in peavey back in '92.



I got out of the bar buisness 10 years ago, the pay is the same it was in '92. Which was the same in '82. Now I see bar guys getting into doing what should have been decent paying gigs for stupid money, and making me look like a horses ass because i charge a living wage.



Times are tough and even tougher in the suburban markets, and I got 2 car payments, a house payment, a health insureance payment (and i stil have to pay $300 a month out of pocket for my wifes meds , because they arent covered) and Shop overhead.



Yep, I feel you.



Nothing has changed...



People that work in the Entertainment field are some of the hardest working, driving, drinking, gambling, swearing, and womanizing people out there. They are also some of the kindest, most helpful and conscientious people too.



They are hard to beat down, and even harder to hold down. They take a lot of crap from Promoters, Band Managers, Musicians, Venue Managers and Owners... but, they still enjoy their work and most often, put their heart and soul into providing their services....even for a-holes.



Now, I'm not in any way suggesting that anyone scheme to a plan for price fixing. After all, price fixing is illegal. But, many industries, Food Industry, Medical, Dental, Auto repair, Heating & Cooling (HVAC), Plumbing, Insurance, Public Utilities, all seem to have a baseline, minimal charge for specific services. (They call it an ''Industry pricing guideline'' or ''Industry standard pricing'')



I think it's way past the time for our Industry to establish an informal, Industry pricing guideline.



These other Industries ''Industry standard pricing guidelines'' are/were not meant to keep any ankle-biters at bay, but to RAISE the overall STANDARDS of their respective Industries.



Please comment..



Hammer









 
Re: Working for Cheap

Charlie....



I agree with you on the baseline. The problem is that there are just so many facets to what we do, from the single SOS with a mic plugged directly in for a one-hour lecture all the way up to a full flown system with lighting and all.



I still figure my jobs by man-hours and other expenses, then something for the gear. If I don't have enough or appropriate gear, then the rental cost goes into expenses along with mileage, insurance, power, etc.



Simply figuring your rates based on a careful evaluation should tend to get us all in the same ball park for the same services.



And for those who haven't yet set themselves up with a firm business plan just ask yourself:



What would I have to pay someone else to cover for me if for some reason I can't go and do what I'm contracted to do????



That's what you should be charging.
 
Re: Working for Cheap

I see alot of issues that can be best addressed by educating the consumer. I cant tell you the many times I have been to ''bid blind'' by county fairs and festivals. Sometimes they spec overkill, sometimes Not enough rig for the gig. We as proffesionals need to be involed with the event seminars, etc.

Unfortunatly sometimes the consumer doesnt want to be educated or even care about good sound, its all about the cost. Period.







Right now in this economy, I really have to take what i can get. Am I willing to kill myself to get it no, but I am ready to cut a deal.



More than anything else cheap gear is what has been killing us. Back in the day cheap amps cost a buck a watt and console with more than a 3 band eq and 2 busses cost @ least $100 to $150 per channel. Now a kid with 5K from mommy and daddy can start a sound co with Behringer and honestly sound as good as the 15K I had invested in peavey back in '92.



I got out of the bar buisness 10 years ago, the pay is the same it was in '92. Which was the same in '82. Now I see bar guys getting into doing what should have been decent paying gigs for stupid money, and making me look like a horses ass because i charge a living wage.



Times are tough and even tougher in the suburban markets, and I got 2 car payments, a house payment, a health insureance payment (and i stil have to pay $300 a month out of pocket for my wifes meds , because they arent covered) and Shop overhead.



Yep, I feel you.



Nothing has changed...



People that work in the Entertainment field are some of the hardest working, driving, drinking, gambling, swearing, and womanizing people out there. They are also some of the kindest, most helpful and conscientious people too.



They are hard to beat down, and even harder to hold down. They take a lot of crap from Promoters, Band Managers, Musicians, Venue Managers and Owners... but, they still enjoy their work and most often, put their heart and soul into providing their services....even for a-holes.



Now, I'm not in any way suggesting that anyone scheme to a plan for price fixing. After all, price fixing is illegal. But, many industries, Food Industry, Medical, Dental, Auto repair, Heating & Cooling (HVAC), Plumbing, Insurance, Public Utilities, all seem to have a baseline, minimal charge for specific services. (They call it an ''Industry pricing guideline'' or ''Industry standard pricing'')



I think it's way past the time for our Industry to establish an informal, Industry pricing guideline.



These other Industries ''Industry standard pricing guidelines'' are/were not meant to keep any ankle-biters at bay, but to RAISE the overall STANDARDS of their respective Industries.



Please comment..



Hammer



Great post!
 
Re: Working for Cheap

And for those who haven't yet set themselves up with a firm business plan just ask yourself:



What would I have to pay someone else to cover for me if for some reason I can't go and do what I'm contracted to do????



That's what you should be charging.

That's the reason for this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_bond. In the install world it is quite common for a Contractor to be required to post a Performance and Payment bond.



When comparing to some industries like medical, dental, architecture, engineering, accounting, Electrical Contractor, etc. you also have to consider that many of those professions entail legal liability to perform the work at or above some defined or accepted level, as well as for the results of that work. And their ability to even continue working in that field is also at stake, at least for licensed professions. Just for some idea of the cost impact, I'm a one man shop without any claims and the annual premium for the professional liability coverage that some of my projects require I carry has been up to 10 times what I pay for my general commercial liability coverage.



The point is that standard pricing guidelines are often accompanied by professional standards for the work and in some cases by licensing and additional liability. I don't see professional licensing ever coming to combat audio and for the reasons Dick stated, along with many other reasons, any ''industry standards'' for the quality of work or results would be difficult to develop and apply.
 
Re: Working for Cheap

It was a REALLY STUPID article! (at least the part I read) The guy listed his kids as an expense cutting into his profit... as a reason for going out of his low budget business. Did he get rid of his kids when he quit his business? He talked about raising his prices as he moved up, but then he got so busy he had to quit? I had to stop reading at that point...
icon_lol.gif
 
Re: Working for Cheap

I dont care who ya are, weve all been an ankle biter at least once. Even if its only for one show. Outside of my measly $180.00/month from national guard, Ive been doing sound as my day job for over 2 years now. It had ups and downs and I even had to sell some equipment to make ends meet on 2 occasions. I used to take a cheap gig every now and then to show what I provide. But ive never got back at that price again and I make that clear going into the first show. When they crave that better quality but dont want to spend the money they will go with someone else, but they usually come back with the cash next time. Bands, Managers and promoters do talk, and when they say ''hey this guy sucked ass tonight no people skills and the set sounded like shit, why cant we get that one guy back?'' Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesnt.