Working for Cheap

Re: Working for Cheap

My market has way too many ankle bitters. I have put in quotes of $1500, only to have them say ''so and so is willing to do it for $600''. I say sorry, can't work for that amount. The ankle bitter can't deliver on what he said and the show bombs, guess who they call again? Sometimes it's better for them to pay the ''cheap'' guy to learn the hard way. This process also starts to eliminate the ankle bitters, or at least setting them apart from the people that are capable for doing the show and getting compensated accordingly.
 
Re: Working for Cheap

Does this really happen? Do customrs really draw the connection between their cheap decisions and the lost quality?



This is the market I have struggled to get in to... The people willing to pay for the quality work. Step one has to be actually providing the quality, which involves a major commitment to doing things right, and refusing to be involved in under budgeted events that are going to make everyone involved look bad.
 
Re: Working for Cheap

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Re: Working for Cheap

BOTTOM FEEDERS UNITE ! HANG YOUR UNWORTHY HEADS IN SHAME..BURN YOUR YAMMY CLUBS...TOSS YOUR CARVIN AMPS INTO THE DEPTHS OF THE SEA...FOR YOU ARE THE SCUM OF SOUND REINFORCEMENT...AND YOU DESERVE A FIREY DEATH !!



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Ryan....I answer in jest man.!!



Quote: said:
$50k salary isn't bad, but it's not the best thing for what I consider a pretty tough job.



Perhaps...but the market doesn't give a damn. There's work to be had - high and low, and in this economy, ten percent of something is better than one hundred percent of nothing for many people. (I alone, am defender of the unworthy and stand bare assed before you, bald and unafraid
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)



Times have changed (oh weeewy?) It's time to be smart, reinvent, reinvest, rethink ideas, strip down, streamline, adapt, improvise and get after it. What we think we're worth obviously isn't always what others think we're worth. It's not about truth, it's about perception, which, of course, is unfortunate bullshit but....



So, grab your Behringer, your tired, worn rat fuzz cabinets and mount up, you low life ankle biters...(better yet, toss the Behringers) and grab the gusto of long hours, little pay, sore muscles, flat tires, smoky bars and warm beers. It ain't that bad.



As for me and my house, we will continue to be just above ankle biter, what I term ''groin level'' sound reinforcement (brought about by good looks, charm and EV QRX) and be damned proud to work regularly, come in late, kiss the momma, down a cheese sammich and head to bed.



And just to piss you holier than thou ''other'' BBS boys off, I may even add a Presonus 24-4 ...
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god bless us....everyone



Love it!! Groin Level!! I consider myself around belly button level but i remember being the ankle, the knee, and the nuts or clam. I was tired, pissed, broke, and was sick of collecting so much money, doing so much work and being left with nothing but debt.



I was contacted by a ''business consultant'' - '' can we come in and talk to you for an hour? it will be free''



Hell ya i thought.....but what can they teach me that i dont already know! i know it all! ya well 5 hours later (ya he stayed for 5 hours) i still thought i had wasted my time, but after about 5 days the mans wisdom finally started to sink in.



1)I was loaded with mostly low end, pain in the ass clients,

He called these ''undesirable clients''



2) I wanted to do larger events that paid more, more often than i was - he called these ''desirable clients''



3) i had problem employees - he suggested a way to screen for better employees



4) he suggested ways to stop wasting my marketing budget and steer it towards those ''desirable clients''



within 6 months i raised my prices, started doing a better job at qualifying my clients for their needs and budget. I dropped my C-rig's all together and sold the vans they were used to haul it around.



some of my c-rig clients moved up to our B-rig at 2x the price. most bailed and i suggest they go to the ankle biters i sold my C-rigs to (nothing wrong with them cuz they are profitable at that level - im not) We opened up time and truckspace for our A-rig clients and in the summer thats all we do.



But every winter i get reminded that this is a viscous biz and when its the dead season you cant underestimate who will become an ankle biter just to keep their guys busy.



This month (the really dead season) I was contacted by a promoter i regularly work with who is CHEAP, always wants something for way less than its worth and always conveniently forgets to tell you about the extra work involved. He verbally gave me the gig and i put it on the books (i sent him the contract but he almost never returns them)



I for some reason felt weird about this one and hounded him for the contract - no returned calls, finally he gets back to me and says ''contact my new production manager'' - who didnt return my calls either. he finally did to let me know he got another company for the same price for more gear.



Now keep in mind im quoting 40 LEDs on 2 trusses, 16 boxes of Line array, 12 subs, 8 Xarray wedges + stereo sidfills, dual 48 consoles, 10 bands including 3 nationals - all day event. this would typically be a 4-5K event. i did it for signifanctly less,



he tell me he got the big boys down the street to bring in 16 Meyers, 12 subs dual digital desks, 16 movers, backdrop for less....



now i KNOW they would charge 8-10k in season for this rig. so i explained to him that i thought it was great that he got them for that price and he agreed it was not going to happen reguarly (or ever again) and that i offered my discount as a token of mutual loyalty, but now that i understand that there is no loyalty my prices will no longer be discounted, so when the busy season comes around you will be paying full boat if im even making myself available and they can then choose to go to the really expensive house or find themselves a new bellybotton biter.



In the end i replaced that gig with a double stack b-rig, with a projector and screen and it pays a $100 more than i would have been making from that pain in the ass gig. This from a client that understands the value in what we do and does not burn bridges by always looking for the bigger better deal of the moment.
 
Re: Working for Cheap

Now, I'm not in any way suggesting that anyone scheme to a plan for price fixing. After all, price fixing is illegal. But, many industries, Food Industry, Medical, Dental, Auto repair, Heating & Cooling (HVAC), Plumbing, Insurance, Public Utilities, all seem to have a baseline, minimal charge for specific services. (They call it an ''Industry pricing guideline'' or ''Industry standard pricing'')



I think it's way past the time for our Industry to establish an informal, Industry pricing guideline.



These other Industries ''Industry standard pricing guidelines'' are/were not meant to keep any ankle-biters at bay, but to RAISE the overall STANDARDS of their respective Industries.



Please comment..



Hammer



Formal, or informal price fixing is exactly what you are suggesting and it is quite illegal. Anti Trust laws are very clear on this.



The only time that I see pricing guidelines in effect that are legal is when a monopoly or a union (labor monopoly) is involved.



That is what you're really suggesting isn't it? (Unionization)
 
Re: Working for Cheap

IMO a union (which is really price fixing of labor and a forced upon bill of labor with minimum head counts and hours) and ''pricing guidelines'' are two different things. If you go into a car shop and ask to have your carberator repaired, the look up what the part costs and what the standard time it should take...so if it says 1.5 hours they will typically charge you 1.5 hrs even if it takes them 25 minutes. I can then go to another garage and he may charge me only .5 hours labor even though he knows what the standard is. Standards and price fixing are not the same. No ones has to stick to the standard but have a reference of what the industry will charge.



Look at doctors and hospitals! If thats not price fixing i dont know what it... Lets charge 5x what a procedure should costs because we know the insurance co's will only pay 25%. Thats wrong!

 
Re: Working for Cheap

Formal, or informal price fixing is exactly what you are suggesting and it is quite illegal. Anti Trust laws are very clear on this.



The only time that I see pricing guidelines in effect that are legal is when a monopoly or a union (labor monopoly) is involved.



That is what you're really suggesting isn't it? (Unionization)

How about this, http://rsmeans.reedconstructiondata.com/bookdetailed.aspx?CouponCode=IGOG-2001&gclid=CNjz0b6O56YCFaZl7Aod-Ubu0g? This has been a standard resource for estimating in the construction industry based on standardized costs for many years. What makes it different than price fixing is that it is the costs normally charged setting the standard and not the standard setting the costs, but it certainly is a form of pricing guideline. Similar with many industry compensation surveys, they reflect what is being charged and not what should be charged.



There is a difference between establishing what it is a standard cost or be compensation based on the market and establishing practices that enforce applying specific costs or compensation. I believe that everyone here and/or all the related associations and industry groups could get together and establish what typical or 'standard' service costs and staff compensation are for the industry and publish that, many industries do this. What can not be done is for those individuals or groups to work together to set pricing or compensation levels to be implemented by all involved.
 
Re: Working for Cheap

Now, I'm not in any way suggesting that anyone scheme to a plan for price fixing. After all, price fixing is illegal. But, many industries, Food Industry, Medical, Dental, Auto repair, Heating & Cooling (HVAC), Plumbing, Insurance, Public Utilities, all seem to have a baseline, minimal charge for specific services. (They call it an ''Industry pricing guideline'' or ''Industry standard pricing'')



I think it's way past the time for our Industry to establish an informal, Industry pricing guideline.



These other Industries ''Industry standard pricing guidelines'' are/were not meant to keep any ankle-biters at bay, but to RAISE the overall STANDARDS of their respective Industries.



Please comment..



Hammer



Formal, or informal price fixing is exactly what you are suggesting and it is quite illegal. Anti Trust laws are very clear on this.



The only time that I see pricing guidelines in effect that are legal is when a monopoly or a union (labor monopoly) is involved.



That is what you're really suggesting isn't it? (Unionization)





Hello Steve,



I'm not suggesting that you, or anyone join a Union. Unionized Stagehands do not price fix, as there ''price'' differs from customer to customer and project to project. Their hourly wages are determined through contractual negotiations.



I disagree.... Anti Trust laws are not very clear.



There are many questionable practices in the States regarding pricing...



Examples:



Real Estate Agencies contract to buy/sell a home for a 6% fee, and none that I've ever dealt with will budge on that fee.



Specific brand's, Auto Dealerships, will not sell their vehicles below their Manufacturer's list price.



Ever price a new Harley?



Overseas Airplane tickets are price fixed.



Dental clinics in large urban markets ''price fix'' for routine products such as crowns and xrays.



Even the U.S. ''minimum wage'' could be considered as price fixing, when it comes to labor's wages.



But, this is not where I was trying to go with my original post....



As Dick Rees wrote in his follow-up post, there are many factors to consider in regards to a specific gig. I wasn't suggesting that we (or anyone) try to establish a price list for each and every function.



My only intention was to try to get a dialog going on what may be considered as profitable for the provider and what may be considered a reasonable charge to the end-user.



We've had plenty of discussions regarding ''what to charge'', but nothing ever in depth as to HOW to price a Gig.



Cheers,

Hammer



















 
Re: Working for Cheap

Every single example you use is an example of a monopoly or limited monopoly.



Price is a direct function of supply and demand.

If you want prices to go up, you either create more demand or less supply.

To charge more for sound (assuming demand for live events is stable), you:



1) Via a union, artificially restrict access to the trade (supply down), increasing what suppliers can charge (demand up), or



2) Fix prices (requires participation by all or it doesn't work - and it's illegal), or



3) Find a way to sell yourself as being worth more





Number 3 is how I choose to do it. (It's a tough road to hoe, though!)
 
Re: Working for Cheap

Stephen,

That work for free flowchart you posted is hilarious and so true!
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Definitely a keeper, along with the troubleshooting flowchart that has been floating around for quite some time.

Arthur
 
Re: Working for Cheap

Every single example you use is an example of a monopoly or limited monopoly.



Price is a direct function of supply and demand.

If you want prices to go up, you either create more demand or less supply.

To charge more for sound (assuming demand for live events is stable), you:



1) Via a union, artificially restrict access to the trade (supply down), increasing what suppliers can charge (demand up), or



2) Fix prices (requires participation by all or it doesn't work - and it's illegal), or



3) Find a way to sell yourself as being worth more





Number 3 is how I choose to do it. (It's a tough road to hoe, though!)





Steve...I'm assuming you were meant this post for me?



I don't understand how everything I've listed is a Monopoly?



How are all Real Estate agencies, Monopolies? How are all Dental Practices Monopolies? How are all Harley Dealerships Monopolies? How are Car Dealerships, Monopolies?



All of these Agencies, Dental Practices and Dealerships are/could be, independently owned. ''Mono'' means one, and ''Poly'' means many. But, in this case the word Monopoly (Mono-polein) in greek, ''polein'', means ''to sell''.



''Monopolies are characterized by the lack of economic competition to produce the goods or service, and, the lack of a viable substitute.''



Now..if Harley was the only Motorcycle Manufacturer in the World (or available in the Country) ...then, they could/would be seen as a Monopoly. Or, if the Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Co. owned every one of it's dealerships and therefore, set all of the prices, it could be seen as Monopolistic.



The same for the Real Estate Agencies, Dental Clinics, etc... but, they are not all owned by one Company. And, there is other supposed, competition.



I like your answer # 3, which seems to be a proper and simple answer to what can be a complicated problem....



But, No offense, it can be a wasteful endeavor if you do not regulate your efforts.



Here's a story that I've told many times over the years....



For example: Mister ''A'' gets $400. to supply, set up and operate ''X'' system, and goes above and beyond what is detailed in the contract. (offering to help the lighting guy, backline guy because they're late to the gig) He might even ''save the show'' through extra back breaking work....finding that way to ''being worth more''.



Mister ''B'' offers the same ''X'' system and the same contract to the promoter, but, at $600. Of course, the promoter denied him the work based on his price.



Mister ''A'' feels all happy that he got the gig, until he realizes that his costs of Insurance, Taxes, Helper, Self, etc..(expenses) are covered, but, his profit is nonexistent. Not only that, but he worked his butt off.



Mister ''A'' is contacted again by the promoter (because he did such a great job). But now, because they're ''friends''...the promoter tells Mister ''A'' that he can't pay the same amount as the last gig... (only $350.)...but ''It's only a one time thing'', and that the next time, he'll ''make it up'' to him.



So, Mister ''A'' loads in and sets up his system...gets it sounding really good...and is relaxing... but then, the promoter comes to request that Mister ''A'' help the light guy and after that, help with backline. ''You've done such a great job last time, and, I realized I didn't need the other hands, so...I didn't call them.''



Now, Mister ''A'' is working for less, and consistently expected to produce more. Setting a bad precedent. Now, this Promoter will shop for other Sound Companies to provide the same ''X'' system, for a lower price and expect the same amount of work. (He's thinking, after all, Mister ''A'' went lower without any haggling).



Meanwhile...Mister ''B'' is holding his prices and making a profit on other gigs.



I'm sure everyone has either heard or experienced the same.



What it really boils down to...is what exactly do you expect from your time, investment, and efforts. If you want it to be a successful business, then, treat it like a business, if it's a hobby, then, when you're tired of the effort, you'll find something else to do.



Cheers,

Hammer











 
Re: Working for Cheap

Tree view vs flat view again? ... sigh ... noted.



yes, all your examples exhibit monopolistic behavior.

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If you're talking vehicle repair and ''bottom feeders'' then think about one or 2 man repair shops, not dealerships.



Dealerships, whether they be Ford, Chevy, or Harley, are part of vertical monopolies. If the dealer doesn't ''play ball'' on the pricing structure set by the brand, the brand will pull their dealership, and quickly too. This is monopolistic behavior.



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Real estate - Realtors use the MLS listing service to control real estate commissions. If you list below what they want you to list at, they won't let you list on the MLS. It is most definitely a monopoly (which will be broken soon by internet listings)



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Dental (anything medical for that matter) exists in a highly regulated environment which is not at all free market. This market although not a literal monopoly, exhibits behavior much closer to monopolistic behavior than it does free market behavior so it doesn't fit the bottom feeder discussion.



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Leaving these other professions , my point is that, sound providers at the lower levels, operate in (or as close to as you can get) the free market



Pricing is set by supply and demand in the free market.



''Guidelines'' are artificial constraints.



If you get together with other companies / individuals / etc and agree to pricing guidelines, you are price fixing.

And that is illegal. (Doesn't mean it's not done, but it is illegal)



I can see this being hard to understand if you've worked in a union environment, because it's legal for unions to fix prices. It is not legal for non union organizations to do that.



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So I repeat, if the amount of shows is a fixed number, and you don't like where the going rates are, you have 3 options on how to drive up prices:



1) unionize and artificially restrict access to the trade (drive supply down), increasing what suppliers can charge (thus driving demand/prices up), or



2) Guidelines / Price fixing (requires participation by all or it doesn't work - and it's illegal), or



3) Find a way to sell yourself as being worth more.
 
Re: Working for Cheap

IMO a union (which is really price fixing of labor and a forced upon bill of labor with minimum head counts and hours) and ''pricing guidelines'' are two different things. If you go into a car shop and ask to have your carberator repaired, the look up what the part costs and what the standard time it should take...so if it says 1.5 hours they will typically charge you 1.5 hrs even if it takes them 25 minutes. I can then go to another garage and he may charge me only .5 hours labor even though he knows what the standard is. Standards and price fixing are not the same. No ones has to stick to the standard but have a reference of what the industry will charge.



Exactly. You can have competition along industry pricing. Car shops compete on offering shuttle services, coffee, free car cleaning, etc. but generally won't devalue their services to gain your business. Their rates might vary from $75 to $120/hour but not from $10 to $100. The analogy breaks down though, at least in my area, because certification is required to work on cars. The entry price into the business - rent on a shop, capital investment for diagnostic equipment and tools, etc - is a barrier to entry. The capital and training threshold for entry into the auto repair business is much higher than ankle-biter SR.



I think SR is more analogous to the landscaping business. A neighborhood kid with a lawnmower may pinch you on the low end, while a huge regional company with excess machinery capacity and an efficient HR department (low labour costs) may pinch you from the high end. To compete with the bigger guys requires huge capital investments, but to NOT make those investments puts you at the mercy of the low barrier of entry to the market.



To stretch the analogy a bit, the main thing keeping the landscaping business at bay is that you can't buy a Kubota at the Home Depot with your credit card. That still hasn't prevented some people from offering the services of their Sears lawnmower tugged around by their compact pickup though.



The biggest issue is the perception of quality. If you don't have the proper equipment and knowledge, you won't be able to do a proper job regardless of the business. What, for our industry, is that threshold of quality? Which customers care and how much do they care? Every person with an ipod and a home theater feels qualified evaluate audio needs and their idea of acceptable and our idea of acceptable might be quite different. If you really care, the solution is to find clients who care too. My services would be completely over the top for some people and woefully inadequate for others. The wide variation in expectations and budget can complicate the market, but it is still a market. If there is excess capacity prices will drop until some people go out of business to restore equilibrium. Some parts of the market may not be worth pursuing after-all as well.



The fact that some things are not worth pursuing is part of the incremental decreases faced by our industry. Professional gigging musicians have a hard time getting reasonable paying gigs so they pack it in a get other jobs. A single DJ can work for a lot less than a 5 piece band with a soundguy and may yield the club better ROI.



But still, is ankle-biting SR a proper market? The market system is all about the allocation of resources. We say there is a market failure when there is something disrupting the efficient allocation of those resources. Hobbyist SR providers who supplement their SR 'addiction' with other income cause these distortions at the lower level when they work for prices that fall below what would be required if their hobby was not supplemented by other means. This is what is meant by 'established' pricing. In my market, certain items have fairly standard rates. There is variation with quantity, time of year, who you know, etc, but if you call around you'll find the retail and cross-rental prices on many items are reasonably close (usually with some astronomically high outliers).



If you charge well below those rates because you don't rely on that money you are distorting an otherwise effective market system. The pervasiveness of the distortions will vary depending on the depth and breadth of the people causing them, or whether they are being conducted in an area where there is a market to begin with.



Someone mixing an open mic night for $50 might as well be doing in for free as far as I'm concerned. There is no real opportunity for a professional market to satisfy that next-to-no-budget work. It would be cost prohibitive to pay an electrician to change a kitchen lightbulb, and they would take no offense to hiring little-neighbor-Johnny to do the job. Where shit gets scary is when Johnny starts offering to build an addition on the side of your house.

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Re: Working for Cheap

How are all Harley Dealerships Monopolies?



Or, if the Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Co. owned every one of it's dealerships and therefore, set all of the prices, it could be seen as Monopolistic.



Cheers,

Hammer

Well, Charlie, the Motor Company (Harley) DOES set the prices and if dealers sell at less than list, they yank the dealership. Authorized Harley dealerships are the only place you can buy a new Harley.



The work around is that they will throw in service deals, accessories or discounts on future add ons but will not negotiate on the base price.

 
Re: Working for Cheap

How are all Harley Dealerships Monopolies?



Or, if the Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Co. owned every one of it's dealerships and therefore, set all of the prices, it could be seen as Monopolistic.



Cheers,

Hammer

Well, Charlie, the Motor Company (Harley) DOES set the prices and if dealers sell at less than list, they yank the dealership. Authorized Harley dealerships are the only place you can buy a new Harley.



The work around is that they will throw in service deals, accessories or discounts on future add ons but will not negotiate on the base price.





Hello Rob,



What you quoted is cute, but, because of deletions, it could be taken out of context.



And....yes. I know that Harley sets all pricing on New Harleys, and I know that they're ''reluctant'' to negotiate on pricing. (see my post from 10:20 am)



Cheers,

Hammer



 
Re: Working for Cheap

How are all Harley Dealerships Monopolies?



Or, if the Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Co. owned every one of it's dealerships and therefore, set all of the prices, it could be seen as Monopolistic.



Cheers,

Hammer

Well, Charlie, the Motor Company (Harley) DOES set the prices and if dealers sell at less than list, they yank the dealership. Authorized Harley dealerships are the only place you can buy a new Harley.



The work around is that they will throw in service deals, accessories or discounts on future add ons but will not negotiate on the base price.





Hello Rob,



What you quoted is cute, but, because of deletions, it could be taken out of context.



And....yes. I know that Harley sets all pricing on New Harleys, and I know that they're ''reluctant'' to negotiate on pricing. (see my post from 10:20 am)



Cheers,

Hammer

Sorry Charlie. I didn't have an opinion on the other examples so I thought I just quoted the relevant references to H-D. And, I really am just addressing the issue of the Motor Company. I have owned many Harleys and currently have 2 that were bought new so I am speaking from experience on this issue at least.