X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

[Todd Warnock]

Apologies for this "novice" question, but - as the group indicates, I've got a "day job", and sound engineering isn't it! That said, here's our situation...

We've got an X32 with the S16 digital snake (two) and the P16 in ear solution (8 stations.) Everything is up and running and working "fine" with a few exceptions.

I'm not sure I totally understand the whole DCA/Group thing, and I've read forums and watched videos and still can't figure it out. (So, while I know what I have is wrong, I'll tell you what I haved with the hopes that someone can give me some detailed instructions on how to fix it (or where to get help.)

We have 3 DCAs that group Vocals, Instruments and Drums. They're on individual busses (I think that's right - I don't access to the system during the week, only on Sundays.) The need (original thought) was that the DCAs would allow us to adjust the drum mix as a whole (and the same with vocals and instruments). However, in doing so, it affects our in-ear volume on the P16. Obviously, that's a problem.

What I'd like is to individually be able to adjust the drum mics (8 of them) on the individual channels and have it affect the house volume. Ditto on a slider to affect the whole group of mics (the drum mix.) Neither should affect the P16 mix/gain.

I know this is probably an easy fix. Somebody - what am I missing?

Thanks!

 

[Jared Koopman]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

On the Routing P16 Output Tab, make sure your sources are set as prefade.

 

[Todd Warnock]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

Thanks, but that's not it. The P16 output comes from a MixBus, and the tap is PreEQ (which is also pre-fade.) Again - the problem (I think) is the way the MixBus and DCA is setup... I'm just at a loss as to what to change!

 

[Nick Davis]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

We have 3 DCAs that group Vocals, Instruments and Drums. They're on individual busses (I think that's right - I don't access to the system during the week, only on Sundays.) The need (original thought) was that the DCAs would allow us to adjust the drum mix as a whole (and the same with vocals and instruments). However, in doing so, it affects our in-ear volume on the P16. Obviously, that's a problem.

Thanks!

Have you checked DCA's are set to control only the input channels and not the bus's that feed your P16 outs as well ( though you could set up separate DCas to control these as well if you wanted).

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

If you post your scene file, one of us could likely figure it out very quickly.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

Apologies for this "novice" question, but - as the group indicates, I've got a "day job", and sound engineering isn't it! That said, here's our situation...

We've got an X32 with the S16 digital snake (two) and the P16 in ear solution (8 stations.) Everything is up and running and working "fine" with a few exceptions.

I'm not sure I totally understand the whole DCA/Group thing, and I've read forums and watched videos and still can't figure it out. (So, while I know what I have is wrong, I'll tell you what I haved with the hopes that someone can give me some detailed instructions on how to fix it (or where to get help.)

We have 3 DCAs that group Vocals, Instruments and Drums. They're on individual busses (I think that's right - I don't access to the system during the week, only on Sundays.) The need (original thought) was that the DCAs would allow us to adjust the drum mix as a whole (and the same with vocals and instruments). However, in doing so, it affects our in-ear volume on the P16. Obviously, that's a problem.

What I'd like is to individually be able to adjust the drum mics (8 of them) on the individual channels and have it affect the house volume. Ditto on a slider to affect the whole group of mics (the drum mix.) Neither should affect the P16 mix/gain.

I know this is probably an easy fix. Somebody - what am I missing?

Thanks!

I think you are confused about the way DCAs work. In the most simple sense they act like a channel's additional, pre-everything gain control that can be assigned to a master control fader. Read those words carefully... A DCA does *not* pass audio, rather it provides a control signal that controls the DCA "circuit" contained within each channel, in response to the master control fader.

Grouping that *does* pass audio include "mixes" (fixed level - think of as "groups"; variable level - think of as "Aux" {pre fader=monitor} or effects {post fader} mixes) and matrices (but we don't need to go there, yet). With these "mix buses" we can insert additional processing (dynamics or EQ, typically) and then route the bus output to L/R and other destinations (matrix or P16, or physical outputs).

If P16 monitoring is critical to your gig, you need to think "backwards" about your signal flow and control options. You may find that you can't use DCAs without them affecting the IEM mix.

 

[Todd Warnock]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

If you post your scene file, one of us could likely figure it out very quickly.

View attachment River-scn.doc

Thank you! The file attachment uploader wouldn't allow me to upload a .scn file, so I renamed it to .doc and uploaded it. You'll need to rename it back with a .scn suffix. Hopefully that will work. Feel free to correct, suggest, criticize (gently, please...this is new to me!) We're open to suggestions and recommendations on anything.

Thanks. too, to the poster that suggested I may not understand DCAs. Your comments were helpful, and - you're right - I didn't understand, but I'm learning! Hopefully the attached .scn file will be useful in helping me with the steps to correct.

Again - in a nut shell - I'd like three sliders (currently DCAs in the attached .scn file, but now I realize that's not right) to control the combined mixes of the drums, vocals and instruments while NOT affecting the P16 mix. Thank you again!

ToddView attachment River-scn.docView attachment River-scn.doc

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

View attachment 12165
Again - in a nut shell - I'd like three sliders (currently DCAs in the attached .scn file, but now I realize that's not right) to control the combined mixes of the drums, vocals and instruments while NOT affecting the P16 mix. Thank you again!

ToddView attachment 12165View attachment 12165

You have alot going on here Todd that is unconventional to me, but maybe it works for you. I have no experience with the P16 system, or how it reacts but from what I can see from your routing - you are using ch9 of the P16 as your "drum group" send to the P16. Raising and lowering the dca assigned to drums will affect the group level, becuase the dca is basically "raising and lowering" the channel volumes contributing to the group. it is also assigned as pre EQ, not pre fader - which again, not sure how that affects the sends... but I would go back and assign ALL P16 routing to pre fader as instructed earlier in the thread (ch 1 is set pre EQ, not pre fader). Also some general tips... use your highpass filters more on your channels instead of carving the bottom end out with EQ ( EG your overheads have no highpass on, and yet the low eq is dragged out) Some might argue 6 and half a dozen but... On your snare a highpass of 400hz , but 20hz on your 1st tom...
Also what is group 4 doing as it doesn't seem to be crowd ambient mics (not assigned to P16), nor is it assinged to L&R... same goes for group 5 ( what is band co?) - no channels are assinged to buss 5...

 

[Jared Koopman]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

View attachment 12165

Thank you! The file attachment uploader wouldn't allow me to upload a .scn file, so I renamed it to .doc and uploaded it. You'll need to rename it back with a .scn suffix. Hopefully that will work. Feel free to correct, suggest, criticize (gently, please...this is new to me!) We're open to suggestions and recommendations on anything.

Thanks. too, to the poster that suggested I may not understand DCAs. Your comments were helpful, and - you're right - I didn't understand, but I'm learning! Hopefully the attached .scn file will be useful in helping me with the steps to correct.

Again - in a nut shell - I'd like three sliders (currently DCAs in the attached .scn file, but now I realize that's not right) to control the combined mixes of the drums, vocals and instruments while NOT affecting the P16 mix. Thank you again!

ToddView attachment 12165View attachment 12165

Since you are using subgroups, you need the DCA to control the group, not the inputs to the groups. For example your Drum DCA is controlling channels 17-24. Instead, assign the DCA to Mixbus 3. That should control the FOH volume while the P16 feed is untouched since it is pre-fade. You can always setup one DCA to control inputs to the groups and one to control the group itself.

Your P16 routing looks ok, all are pre-fade with the exception of channels 15 and 16 (by design?).

Does that make sense?

My question would be, do you need to use them as subgroups or would a mixbus/aux send make more sense? That way the P16 is not affected by house mix at all.

 

[Todd Warnock]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

Since you are using subgroups, you need the DCA to control the group, not the inputs to the groups. For example your Drum DCA is controlling channels 17-24. Instead, assign the DCA to Mixbus 3. That should control the FOH volume while the P16 feed is untouched since it is pre-fade. You can always setup one DCA to control inputs to the groups and one to control the group itself.

Your P16 routing looks ok, all are pre-fade with the exception of channels 15 and 16 (by design?).

Does that make sense?

My question would be, do you need to use them as subgroups or would a mixbus/aux send make more sense? That way the P16 is not affected by house mix at all.

Jared - I think that makes sense! So - I need to remove channels 17-24 from the DCA group 3 and add MixBus 3 to the DCA group 3. Correct?

Channels 15 and 16 are our pastor mics, and - while the band wants to hear what they have to say - they don't want to hear them when they forget to turn their packs off and start singing. So - when the board operator pulls the fader down, it kills it in the in ear. (I'm open to a better way if there is one )

I don't understand the mixbus/aux question (vs subgroups). I don't want the P16 affected by any fader (except as I mentioned for 15 and 16.) What's the best (or recommended) way?

Shane - thanks for the EQ tips. We're still learning this stuff. I'll try and digest what you're saying and I'm sure I'll have questions. Group 4 and 5 are essentially "not used" right now. I had an idea, started to implement, and ran into this problem so I stopped. The suggestions though, will help as I go back to it...

Thanks!

 

[Antoon van den Oetelaar]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

Channels 15 and 16 are our pastor mics, and - while the band wants to hear what they have to say - they don't want to hear them when they forget to turn their packs off and start singing. So - when the board operator pulls the fader down, it kills it in the in ear. (I'm open to a better way if there is one )

Mute group, does kill also the pre fader outputs.
You could also put these mics post fader and assign a dca to both inputs, but when you adjust foh levels, the monitor levels will change also... If you have input channels unused you can use 2 extra inputs using the same input xlr, and use these only for the (post fader) monitors, put faders on unity gain and assign these also to the same dca, this is the best way if you have the inputs over. The dca controls both pastor mics for FOH and monitors, and if you want to increase foh level you can use the input faders with the foh assigned to it to adjust, without any change in monitor level. The clear advantage in this case is that you don't have a hard switch as you have with the mute group, I like that for some usecases.

 

[Nick Davis]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

Looking at the scene you are using sub groups - which are fed post fader - from the channels. this is fine for feeding the L/R mix however - mix bus 3 ( drum kit) is also feeding p16 ch 9 and mix bus 4 (Crowd) is feeding P16 ch 13 ( Mix bus 5 is feeding P16 ch 16 but nothing goes to mix bus 5). Although you are feeding the bus's to the P16 pre-fader - the Sub group ( sides - .e one half of the sub group) are being fed from the inputs post fader ( by nature of a using a subgroup) - thus if you raise the DCA controlling the channels feeding the subgroup then both the level going to the L/R master and the feed of this sub-group will be raised and hence the feed to the p16 channels being fed from the busses.

I also note that you have the keys feeding the L/r directly as well as going through bus 2 to L/R.

For those channels that you want to feed to the P16 via a Bus - I suggest you use a separate bus set up as a bus and not a sub-group and fed from the ch pre-fader (or any other setting pre-fader) - you need to use the sends on fader to set the levels going to the bus and you can then control the level going to the p16 either by adjusting the bus level directly or assigning a DCA to control this bus (& other feeds if you like).

On the matter of sub groups - seeing as you are not setting them up as pairs to maintain the pan on the channels why not simply use bus's post fader set as post fader - or the other question is why are you not sending the ch to pairs of sub- groups - just wondered,

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

Hi Todd,

Thanks for the scene file. I doubt I could have even come close to getting you an answer without it

You have quite a bit going on here. With respect to the monitor system, you have the same signal going into the P16 more than once. As an example, you have vocal 1 going in as a separate feed, then as part of the group .... and the group is also going into the P16.

Lets talk about groups and buses (and please someone correct me if I am wrong).

When you use a subgroup, it sums up all the signals assigned to it as its input. This sum is the subgroups "pre fader" input.

In this situation, when you raise the volume of one of the items in the subgroup, the input of that subgroup goes up for that channel.

Tapping the subgroup off for the P16 prefader therefore does not do what you want since the volume for that input goes up (p.s. It wouldn't matter if you raised the DCA or the actual fader for vocal 1)

Now lets do the same situation, but use a mix bus instead of a subgroup:

With a mix bus, you don't just assign an input to it like you do a subgroup, you also assign how much of that signal to send to the mix bus. In my previous example, you would select vocal 1, then on the vocal 1 sends page, would decide how much of vocal 1 to send to the mix bus. The level going to the mix bus for vocal 1 will not change when you change the fader for vocal 1.

Now if you assign your mix bus as one of the inputs to the P16, you should get what you were looking for (assuming you set your configuration for this mix bus to pre-fader).

If you have any questions about changing your config to mix buses vs subgroups, let me know.

Finally, as pointed out DCA's (digitally controlled amplifiers) are more like a set of fingers that move all the sliders you have assigned to them up and down together. They don't have any processing, and can't be routed anywhere since they are not a mix bus or subgroup ... or really in the signal chain at all. They are still very useful (I only use DCA's, and have no subgroups at all).

If you need any more information, please let me know. If you are still confused .... and it is easy to be confused on something this complex, let me know and I can create a scene file and post it with a setup that will do what you want it to do.

What was the purpose of your subgroups?

 

[Todd Warnock]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

Hi Todd,

Thanks for the scene file. I doubt I could have even come close to getting you an answer without it

You have quite a bit going on here. With respect to the monitor system, you have the same signal going into the P16 more than once. As an example, you have vocal 1 going in as a separate feed, then as part of the group .... and the group is also going into the P16.

Lets talk about groups and buses (and please someone correct me if I am wrong).

When you use a subgroup, it sums up all the signals assigned to it as its input. This sum is the subgroups "pre fader" input.

In this situation, when you raise the volume of one of the items in the subgroup, the input of that subgroup goes up for that channel.

Tapping the subgroup off for the P16 prefader therefore does not do what you want since the volume for that input goes up (p.s. It wouldn't matter if you raised the DCA or the actual fader for vocal 1)

Now lets do the same situation, but use a mix bus instead of a subgroup:

With a mix bus, you don't just assign an input to it like you do a subgroup, you also assign how much of that signal to send to the mix bus. In my previous example, you would select vocal 1, then on the vocal 1 sends page, would decide how much of vocal 1 to send to the mix bus. The level going to the mix bus for vocal 1 will not change when you change the fader for vocal 1.

Now if you assign your mix bus as one of the inputs to the P16, you should get what you were looking for (assuming you set your configuration for this mix bus to pre-fader).

If you have any questions about changing your config to mix buses vs subgroups, let me know.

Finally, as pointed out DCA's (digitally controlled amplifiers) are more like a set of fingers that move all the sliders you have assigned to them up and down together. They don't have any processing, and can't be routed anywhere since they are not a mix bus or subgroup ... or really in the signal chain at all. They are still very useful (I only use DCA's, and have no subgroups at all).

If you need any more information, please let me know. If you are still confused .... and it is easy to be confused on something this complex, let me know and I can create a scene file and post it with a setup that will do what you want it to do.

What was the purpose of your subgroups?

Okay Scott... I think I'm close to making sense of this! I've attached an updated .scn file (it's a .doc file - you'll need to rename it.) I'm still not there yet (I don't think) and I think the problem is, as you pointed out, I'm using subgroups and not mix busses. So - how do I change that? Is it really that simple (given my current config, that I just change them to a mixbus?) Thanks for your patience and help (Scott and everyone else!)

ToddView attachment Fix2.doc

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: X32, DCAs, Groups, etc.

Okay Scott... I think I'm close to making sense of this! I've attached an updated .scn file (it's a .doc file - you'll need to rename it.) I'm still not there yet (I don't think) and I think the problem is, as you pointed out, I'm using subgroups and not mix busses. So - how do I change that? Is it really that simple (given my current config, that I just change them to a mixbus?) Thanks for your patience and help (Scott and everyone else!)

ToddView attachment 12316

Hi Todd,

I modified your scene as follows:

On "Setup->Config" screen, I changed your bus base setup to 8 pre fade, 0 subgroups, and 8 post fade mix busses. The 8 prefade (post eq) now have individual sends for each of the input channels you want to put into them. I set them to 0db by color code of the old subgroup labels you were using. You will have to adjust them to fit your needs. The easiest way to do this is to use "sends on fader". If you then select the bus you want to adjust the inputs for, all the faders on the left will now indicate how much they are sending to the selected bus. This also works in reverse. If you select an input channel with "sends on fader" active, the bus faders will indicate how much send is on each of the busses for that single input. Play with it for a while and it will make more sense

I also labeled your efx busses (13, 14, 15) as Plate verb, room verb, and stereo dly. I put the bus returns all to 0db and using sends on fader, applied some plate verb to all vocals as well as a bit of delay. I put a little room verb on your snare.

I didn't do anything to your P16 setup, but if you now do what you originally tried, I think you will find it does exactly what you thought it would do

Let me know if you need any further help.

View attachment Fix2 - Copy.scn.doc