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X32 Discussion
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<blockquote data-quote="Per Søvik" data-source="post: 83781" data-attributes="member: 1285"><p>Re: Monitor out noise</p><p></p><p> Totally get that, and given proper gain and send levels, I see no reason why a noise a few dB above noise floor would represent a problem if the total dynamic range is still adequate, and in my opinion 110 dB is adequate for most purposes. </p><p> Just turning it down all the way to get as close as possible to measuring the output stage only, might not be particularly relevant to this discussion. However, the default position for a monitor engineer must surely be whatever setting that gives the correct nominal level at his monitor when the signal at the desk is at nominal level. Defaulting to max output levels and max gain on monitor amplification and then turning down the send levels will surely lift the noise floor and sometimes introduce a dangerously generous peakroom. I'm not a fan of working that way.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Presumably that Meyer was turned all the way up. I don't know how much it compresses at max input level, but will assume that it's getting to at least 115 dB/1m at nominal input, so I can understand that a -80 dB whine will be pretty annoying and tiresome if one chooses to set it up like that, but again, why use maximum gain in a quiet setting?</p><p> Certainly, and one would assume that the monitor out problem is fixable with some rerouting/shielding/termination. I have done enough rewiring inside mixers to realize that even reputable stuff doesn't always employ optimal solutions everywhere.</p><p> Well, in my case the peak value of the noise seems to be at around -10dB which translates into -110dBfs, so gaining for absolute peaklevel of 140-145 dB at output clipping will indeed produce a very annoying and tring whine even from my presumably very quiet console.</p><p> </p><p> Yes, and this is why I'm sure it must be fixable. I don't presume to know how the monitor out is laid out, but am guessing the signal travels a bit in the analogue domain, but have no idea if the attentuation is in the signal path or is DCA on the output drive (if there even is an output drive after the DA), but the noise issue seems to suggest that it must be going analogue to the pot before being amplified at the output drive. This is pure speculation on my part, and is probably biased by my relative ignorance of modern cirquitry.</p><p> </p><p> Yeah, I just remebered to do it before tear-down and couldn't remember how to change the sampling rate on my recorder, so only did 44.1 KHz as evidenced by the tones at 5512 and 11025 Hz. Wanted to change to 48KHz on the recorder to avoid any aliasing issues that might be present even when going via analogue conversion and filtering. When I couldn't find the sample rate set up in the menu, I just shut down and never thought to take the 48KHz measurement anyway. The tones are guaranteed to shift to 6000 and 12000 Hz as they are beyond any reasonable doubt 1/8 and 1/4 of the sampling frequency.</p><p>I'm tearing down a wall tomorrow and cleaning up before setting up the X32 and other equipment temporarily in a sort of semi-permanent way in the shop that will allow me to finally spend some quality time with it. So hopefully I might have the measurements tomorrow night.</p><p> </p><p> Yeah, remeber the old measurements was mainly of the crap inside my small portable, while this is close to exclusively the output from the monitor outs (except that the leads were running across my UPS and probably picked up some 50 and 100 Hz) so it should look very different. The "measuring" is just a file analysis in Audacity, but it is logarithmic, the frequency scale obviously is, and dB is by its very nature. :razz: </p><p>Quite crappy measurement as the smoothing and lack of resolution fails to show what I think is the true level of the steady tones. This might be better and more correct (0dB on the scale is somewhere between -3dB and -6dB in the soundfile, slope is 0dB/oct):[ATTACH]152148[/ATTACH]</p><p> </p><p> Yes, the X32user.net forum allows most types of files to be uploaded, there is a 2MB size limit. but that can easily be changed if a real need should arise.</p><p> </p><p> And thank you for putting up with me.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />~<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile :-)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />~:smile: Had written a more thorough answer, but then the thing locked up when trying to upload a picture, so had to write it all again <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />~:-(~:sad:</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Per Søvik, post: 83781, member: 1285"] Re: Monitor out noise Totally get that, and given proper gain and send levels, I see no reason why a noise a few dB above noise floor would represent a problem if the total dynamic range is still adequate, and in my opinion 110 dB is adequate for most purposes. Just turning it down all the way to get as close as possible to measuring the output stage only, might not be particularly relevant to this discussion. However, the default position for a monitor engineer must surely be whatever setting that gives the correct nominal level at his monitor when the signal at the desk is at nominal level. Defaulting to max output levels and max gain on monitor amplification and then turning down the send levels will surely lift the noise floor and sometimes introduce a dangerously generous peakroom. I'm not a fan of working that way. Presumably that Meyer was turned all the way up. I don't know how much it compresses at max input level, but will assume that it's getting to at least 115 dB/1m at nominal input, so I can understand that a -80 dB whine will be pretty annoying and tiresome if one chooses to set it up like that, but again, why use maximum gain in a quiet setting? Certainly, and one would assume that the monitor out problem is fixable with some rerouting/shielding/termination. I have done enough rewiring inside mixers to realize that even reputable stuff doesn't always employ optimal solutions everywhere. Well, in my case the peak value of the noise seems to be at around -10dB which translates into -110dBfs, so gaining for absolute peaklevel of 140-145 dB at output clipping will indeed produce a very annoying and tring whine even from my presumably very quiet console. Yes, and this is why I'm sure it must be fixable. I don't presume to know how the monitor out is laid out, but am guessing the signal travels a bit in the analogue domain, but have no idea if the attentuation is in the signal path or is DCA on the output drive (if there even is an output drive after the DA), but the noise issue seems to suggest that it must be going analogue to the pot before being amplified at the output drive. This is pure speculation on my part, and is probably biased by my relative ignorance of modern cirquitry. Yeah, I just remebered to do it before tear-down and couldn't remember how to change the sampling rate on my recorder, so only did 44.1 KHz as evidenced by the tones at 5512 and 11025 Hz. Wanted to change to 48KHz on the recorder to avoid any aliasing issues that might be present even when going via analogue conversion and filtering. When I couldn't find the sample rate set up in the menu, I just shut down and never thought to take the 48KHz measurement anyway. The tones are guaranteed to shift to 6000 and 12000 Hz as they are beyond any reasonable doubt 1/8 and 1/4 of the sampling frequency. I'm tearing down a wall tomorrow and cleaning up before setting up the X32 and other equipment temporarily in a sort of semi-permanent way in the shop that will allow me to finally spend some quality time with it. So hopefully I might have the measurements tomorrow night. Yeah, remeber the old measurements was mainly of the crap inside my small portable, while this is close to exclusively the output from the monitor outs (except that the leads were running across my UPS and probably picked up some 50 and 100 Hz) so it should look very different. The "measuring" is just a file analysis in Audacity, but it is logarithmic, the frequency scale obviously is, and dB is by its very nature. :razz: Quite crappy measurement as the smoothing and lack of resolution fails to show what I think is the true level of the steady tones. This might be better and more correct (0dB on the scale is somewhere between -3dB and -6dB in the soundfile, slope is 0dB/oct):[ATTACH=CONFIG]152148.vB5-legacyid=6372[/ATTACH] Yes, the X32user.net forum allows most types of files to be uploaded, there is a 2MB size limit. but that can easily be changed if a real need should arise. And thank you for putting up with me.:)~:-)~:smile: Had written a more thorough answer, but then the thing locked up when trying to upload a picture, so had to write it all again :(~:-(~:sad: [/QUOTE]
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