Turbosound Flashline
- Thread starter Helge A. Bentsen
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Re: Turbosound Flashline
Hi Bennet,
I am afraid I can't offer much detail or specifics. I saw a .pdf file of the prediction. I did not have the actual EASE file. I do know that it stated "broadband" and that, as Peter mentioned, this was done on EASE 2. FWIW, I have found EASE 2 to be much more accurate in predicting real world performance of our Flex Array rig than EASE 1. I do not know if this is improvements in EASE 2, the Turbo Flex Array file for EASE 2, or both. I just know that the system sounds better and more consistent using EASE 2 to determine system deployment.
Hi Bennet,
I am afraid I can't offer much detail or specifics. I saw a .pdf file of the prediction. I did not have the actual EASE file. I do know that it stated "broadband" and that, as Peter mentioned, this was done on EASE 2. FWIW, I have found EASE 2 to be much more accurate in predicting real world performance of our Flex Array rig than EASE 1. I do not know if this is improvements in EASE 2, the Turbo Flex Array file for EASE 2, or both. I just know that the system sounds better and more consistent using EASE 2 to determine system deployment.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
As broad as I usually go is 1 or 3 octaves, but start with 1/3rd oct to give me any detailed information I want.
The only time I give plots of wider coverage is when the bid is going against something else that already has a broader freq band. To make a more apples to apples comparisom.
Broadband always looks better than narrow band plots. Again-at least with the full EASE program.
I did not see any EASE data on the website to even put into a model-so there is no way (for now) to confirm-or deny it. Plus there are al sorts of games that can played with in the way the data is entered by the manufacturer-some are more realistic than others. Is MAX SPL the point of power compression (it is for some loudspeakers) or the point of rated "peak"? as it is for others. This can make for a huge difference-even for the same box.
For that reason I never pay attention to max spl in EASE and only look at the coverage plots. The max SPL on whether or not the product will get loud enough is based on personal experience more than anything else.
I rarely look at anything "broadband" in EASE. I don't know how much EASE FOCUS has in common with the full EASE program, but I find that broadband just tends to "mush" everything together and does not give any real indicators of coverage etc.
As broad as I usually go is 1 or 3 octaves, but start with 1/3rd oct to give me any detailed information I want.
The only time I give plots of wider coverage is when the bid is going against something else that already has a broader freq band. To make a more apples to apples comparisom.
Broadband always looks better than narrow band plots. Again-at least with the full EASE program.
I did not see any EASE data on the website to even put into a model-so there is no way (for now) to confirm-or deny it. Plus there are al sorts of games that can played with in the way the data is entered by the manufacturer-some are more realistic than others. Is MAX SPL the point of power compression (it is for some loudspeakers) or the point of rated "peak"? as it is for others. This can make for a huge difference-even for the same box.
For that reason I never pay attention to max spl in EASE and only look at the coverage plots. The max SPL on whether or not the product will get loud enough is based on personal experience more than anything else.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Ivan,
Perhaps I should not have made the post. I certainly didn't mean to stir anything up. I got the info from a friend that was fooling with a beta version of the software and sent me a .pdf file just to show me the system potential. The person that sent me the file is certainly not a Turbosound engineer nor any sort of measurement guru by any stretch of the imagination. They were just playing around with punching some numbers into the software and were sharing the result with me. I have been told that the full version of the software for the Flashline will be available on the Turbsound website very soon and anyone can download it and run any scenario they wish.
Ivan,
Perhaps I should not have made the post. I certainly didn't mean to stir anything up. I got the info from a friend that was fooling with a beta version of the software and sent me a .pdf file just to show me the system potential. The person that sent me the file is certainly not a Turbosound engineer nor any sort of measurement guru by any stretch of the imagination. They were just playing around with punching some numbers into the software and were sharing the result with me. I have been told that the full version of the software for the Flashline will be available on the Turbsound website very soon and anyone can download it and run any scenario they wish.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Hi all,
Glad to hear we are generating some chat.
The Ease focus II file Steve saw the results from is a beta file which we will release in the next few days.
As for it's validity, we are extremely proud of the system and having played a small part in its inception I can state the following. The focus the design team put into matching decent polars and real low distortion high output is more in depth than I for one have ever seen, or been part of before.
We also believe that since the inception of the ease gll platform, and ease becoming really accurate, it is time to move away from the old 'massage the data trick' in ease data which is impossible to even avoid with an spk file. In fact there is no massaging in Turbosound GLL's. We were also confident people wouldn't believe how good it is, so we actually had Flashline completely independently measured. All the data Steve saw is based on actual field measurements by an independent lab in Germany.
Ease focus II is free and you can download from AFMG or from us here http://www.turbosound.com/docs/about/software_drivers.shtml
I am adding Pete and Steve to the Beta list so they can play with the files and post a few pics, as soon as it is released and off beta I will post a link here so you can all play.
Focus 2 is different from ease:
Based on the new gll's from speaker lab and as such goes down to 10hz
it isn't full ease so phase data is taken into account within a cluster and the gll, but not when adding multiple hangs together
Surfaces are not reflective
It is our view that we are speaker experts, so we do the speakers, AFMG are prediction guru's they write the software we free issue, lab plm20000q is the best amp on the planet - now available in blue!
Just for the record, the 149db peak is calculated, a single box has been measured at 10% distortion and plenty of headroom doing upto 147dB at 1m, the equivalent power and quality 2" drivers on horns are more than 10dB quieter. In fact Flashline does 138dB at less than 1% distortion, those of you who know pa, know thats not too shabby!
To say we are proud would be an understatement and I really hope you all get to hear it soon, not everyone will love it, but it's got a pretty good chance ;-)
Happy debating!
Dom
Turbosound
Hi all,
Glad to hear we are generating some chat.
The Ease focus II file Steve saw the results from is a beta file which we will release in the next few days.
As for it's validity, we are extremely proud of the system and having played a small part in its inception I can state the following. The focus the design team put into matching decent polars and real low distortion high output is more in depth than I for one have ever seen, or been part of before.
We also believe that since the inception of the ease gll platform, and ease becoming really accurate, it is time to move away from the old 'massage the data trick' in ease data which is impossible to even avoid with an spk file. In fact there is no massaging in Turbosound GLL's. We were also confident people wouldn't believe how good it is, so we actually had Flashline completely independently measured. All the data Steve saw is based on actual field measurements by an independent lab in Germany.
Ease focus II is free and you can download from AFMG or from us here http://www.turbosound.com/docs/about/software_drivers.shtml
I am adding Pete and Steve to the Beta list so they can play with the files and post a few pics, as soon as it is released and off beta I will post a link here so you can all play.
Focus 2 is different from ease:
Based on the new gll's from speaker lab and as such goes down to 10hz
it isn't full ease so phase data is taken into account within a cluster and the gll, but not when adding multiple hangs together
Surfaces are not reflective
It is our view that we are speaker experts, so we do the speakers, AFMG are prediction guru's they write the software we free issue, lab plm20000q is the best amp on the planet - now available in blue!
Just for the record, the 149db peak is calculated, a single box has been measured at 10% distortion and plenty of headroom doing upto 147dB at 1m, the equivalent power and quality 2" drivers on horns are more than 10dB quieter. In fact Flashline does 138dB at less than 1% distortion, those of you who know pa, know thats not too shabby!
To say we are proud would be an understatement and I really hope you all get to hear it soon, not everyone will love it, but it's got a pretty good chance ;-)
Happy debating!
Dom
Turbosound
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Dom, it honestly looks like a hell of a product. I think the horn design is very clever, I hope to run into it sooner rather than later.
I am curious, you mean 147dB at 1m at 10% distortion continuous or peak? At what frequency?
How much HF boost do you think could be added to the Flashline (i.e. for air loss at 3-400') and still meet safe (for the drivers, obviously) wideband SPL?
It is fun to see Turbosound putting out such innovative new products.
Dom, it honestly looks like a hell of a product. I think the horn design is very clever, I hope to run into it sooner rather than later.
I am curious, you mean 147dB at 1m at 10% distortion continuous or peak? At what frequency?
How much HF boost do you think could be added to the Flashline (i.e. for air loss at 3-400') and still meet safe (for the drivers, obviously) wideband SPL?
It is fun to see Turbosound putting out such innovative new products.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Hi Bennett,
I have registered to answer along side Dom, Just to answer a few of your questions (please let me know if I have missed any):
- EASE Focus 2 will take into account temperature and humidity, these are set on the properties tab and as default are set to a standard room at 20C
- The max SPL figures Dom quoted are the SPL figures based on distortion of the system rather than being based on the electrical rating of the driver. The figure quoted is the frequency which would show the lowest SPL in this measurement.
- More high shelf is possible and driver selection was chosen so that proportionally the HF would be much higher due to this effect.
Its great to be discussing this here after a few years of hard work by all involved on this project.
Chris
Application Engineer
Turbosound
Hi Bennett,
I have registered to answer along side Dom, Just to answer a few of your questions (please let me know if I have missed any):
- EASE Focus 2 will take into account temperature and humidity, these are set on the properties tab and as default are set to a standard room at 20C
- The max SPL figures Dom quoted are the SPL figures based on distortion of the system rather than being based on the electrical rating of the driver. The figure quoted is the frequency which would show the lowest SPL in this measurement.
- More high shelf is possible and driver selection was chosen so that proportionally the HF would be much higher due to this effect.
Its great to be discussing this here after a few years of hard work by all involved on this project.
Chris
Application Engineer
Turbosound
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Hi Dom,
Thanks for the beta. I'll give it a whirl asap. Unfortunately I am in the deep end of the pool and paddling as hard as I can trying to finish up a major proposal. It will likely be a day or two before I can play with it. Perhaps Peter will have a go at it and post something in the meantime.
Hi Dom,
Thanks for the beta. I'll give it a whirl asap. Unfortunately I am in the deep end of the pool and paddling as hard as I can trying to finish up a major proposal. It will likely be a day or two before I can play with it. Perhaps Peter will have a go at it and post something in the meantime.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Chris, thanks for registering and answering those questions. I guess a better question would have been, what was the integration time of the SPL measurement used for distortion testing? Is that a long term number? If so, wow. Time to put the pad between the measurement mic capsule and preamp, eh?
Chris, thanks for registering and answering those questions. I guess a better question would have been, what was the integration time of the SPL measurement used for distortion testing? Is that a long term number? If so, wow. Time to put the pad between the measurement mic capsule and preamp, eh?
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Yes it does, in accordance with ISO 9613-1:1993. Acoustics -- Attenuation of sound during propagation outdoors.
It allows you to place multiple microphones around the field and view the 1/3 oct frequency response. You can see the comparative HF loss.
-------------------------------------------------
Sorry - did not see the response from Chris
Yes it does, in accordance with ISO 9613-1:1993. Acoustics -- Attenuation of sound during propagation outdoors.
It allows you to place multiple microphones around the field and view the 1/3 oct frequency response. You can see the comparative HF loss.
-------------------------------------------------
Sorry - did not see the response from Chris
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Re: Turbosound Flashline
A non technical answer - here are 8 a side of Steve's Flex Array ... for the Flashline add another 10 to 12 dB
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/50011/0/
A non technical answer - here are 8 a side of Steve's Flex Array ... for the Flashline add another 10 to 12 dB
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/50011/0/
Now show me something meaningful! Put enough smoothing and integration on anything and it will look nice.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
What would you like to see ... ?
I just posted a screen shot showing the atmospheric stuff you asked about and what Steve was describing - 12 boxes + 8 subs broad band.
Ease Focus is a line-array aiming tool, and as such does not have smoothing. You can however change the resolution of the calculation. When you set it to the highest resolution, my poor old computer almost stops if I display the coloured SPL maps, so as a default I set it to low. In most situations that’s more than I need. This is not the program or computers fault, there is just an enormous amount of calculations needed to do this stuff.
For those people that need more in terms of prediction calculations, Ease is the way to go.
I would suggest that looking at the YouTube video I posted and down loading a copy of Ease Focus and having a play is probably the best thing to do if you want to know some more.
Here are some useful links.
http://www.excelsior-audio.com/Publications/SAC_Ease_Focus.pdf ( Ease Focus V1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=banp-lQrcxA
http://focus.afmg.eu/index.php/fc-downloads-en.html
I hope that helps.
Peter
What would you like to see ... ?
I just posted a screen shot showing the atmospheric stuff you asked about and what Steve was describing - 12 boxes + 8 subs broad band.
Ease Focus is a line-array aiming tool, and as such does not have smoothing. You can however change the resolution of the calculation. When you set it to the highest resolution, my poor old computer almost stops if I display the coloured SPL maps, so as a default I set it to low. In most situations that’s more than I need. This is not the program or computers fault, there is just an enormous amount of calculations needed to do this stuff.
For those people that need more in terms of prediction calculations, Ease is the way to go.
I would suggest that looking at the YouTube video I posted and down loading a copy of Ease Focus and having a play is probably the best thing to do if you want to know some more.
Here are some useful links.
http://www.excelsior-audio.com/Publications/SAC_Ease_Focus.pdf ( Ease Focus V1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=banp-lQrcxA
http://focus.afmg.eu/index.php/fc-downloads-en.html
I hope that helps.
Peter
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Peter,
Broad band says nothing about the directional character of the PA, or its ability to throw HF to overcome atmospheric HF loss. The plot you uploaded gives me as much information as this one, which is a single omnidirectional subwoofer to 400'. I know very well how to use EASE and other line array prediction programs, but I don't have the model for this product!
I'd love to see 1/3 octave slices of the array at 2, 4, 8, and 12 kHz.
Peter,
Broad band says nothing about the directional character of the PA, or its ability to throw HF to overcome atmospheric HF loss. The plot you uploaded gives me as much information as this one, which is a single omnidirectional subwoofer to 400'. I know very well how to use EASE and other line array prediction programs, but I don't have the model for this product!
I'd love to see 1/3 octave slices of the array at 2, 4, 8, and 12 kHz.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Hi All,
Good to see this conversation continuing - Bennett, thankyou for your questions on the measurements, I am going to wait until I have the full measurement report and post this rather than continue with unclear figures.
Peter, the plot you posted is indeed a little misleading - It is better to look at smaller bands (I would use 1 octave bands to map the system for use). It might be an idea to plot a single hang, and show 1 octave and 1/3rd octave measurements at a number of frequencies.
The sub could then be posted as a seperate map, maybe 3 subs with one in cardoid mode?
Once we have some more comments from existing users and Beta test users about this software, then we will be able to release for general release in both EASE focus and EASE 4.3.
Chris
Hi All,
Good to see this conversation continuing - Bennett, thankyou for your questions on the measurements, I am going to wait until I have the full measurement report and post this rather than continue with unclear figures.
Peter, the plot you posted is indeed a little misleading - It is better to look at smaller bands (I would use 1 octave bands to map the system for use). It might be an idea to plot a single hang, and show 1 octave and 1/3rd octave measurements at a number of frequencies.
The sub could then be posted as a seperate map, maybe 3 subs with one in cardoid mode?
Once we have some more comments from existing users and Beta test users about this software, then we will be able to release for general release in both EASE focus and EASE 4.3.
Chris
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Re: Turbosound Flashline
Hi Chris,
That exactly what I do with our flex array – I look at the 1/3 octave stuff to assist finding the best compromise with the physical aspects of the array and any possible EQ correction I may need.
The reason I selected that plot was it was exactly what Steve described, he said -
I'm looking at Ease Focus Prediction Plots for a Flashline rig trimmed out a 40 feet (12 tops flown over 8 subs per side). 120db broadband, unweighted at 400 feet.
That is exactly what I posted! If you look closely at my post you will see that I also highlighted the bandwidth tab which shows 1/3, 1, 3 and broadband.:roll:
Hi Chris,
That exactly what I do with our flex array – I look at the 1/3 octave stuff to assist finding the best compromise with the physical aspects of the array and any possible EQ correction I may need.
The reason I selected that plot was it was exactly what Steve described, he said -
I'm looking at Ease Focus Prediction Plots for a Flashline rig trimmed out a 40 feet (12 tops flown over 8 subs per side). 120db broadband, unweighted at 400 feet.
That is exactly what I posted! If you look closely at my post you will see that I also highlighted the bandwidth tab which shows 1/3, 1, 3 and broadband.:roll:
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Sorry Bennett, when you asked if it accounted for air loss with variable humidity, I assumed you were not that familiar with Ease Focus 2.
Sorry Bennett, when you asked if it accounted for air loss with variable humidity, I assumed you were not that familiar with Ease Focus 2.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
No, I should have been clearer. I am very familiar with this type of program, and have used EASE and EASE Focus 1, but not 2 as I have not worked with any products that use it. I would call the integration of multiple octaves into the viewed result, as well as using low resolution, "smoothing". I am sure EASE Focus 2 can give me the information I want, but I never go broader than 1/3 octave!
I assume it can't provide section specific equalization, since there's no processor it would be paired with.
No, I should have been clearer. I am very familiar with this type of program, and have used EASE and EASE Focus 1, but not 2 as I have not worked with any products that use it. I would call the integration of multiple octaves into the viewed result, as well as using low resolution, "smoothing". I am sure EASE Focus 2 can give me the information I want, but I never go broader than 1/3 octave!
I assume it can't provide section specific equalization, since there's no processor it would be paired with.
Re: Turbosound Flashline
Hi Bennett,
Given the Flashline GLL file is still a beta file, it’s probably not appropriate to post any detailed plots yet. I posted the broadband plot because as you noted it does not really tell that much other than to valid the numbers that Steve mentioned.
With respect to Ease Focus 2, here is a plot that will show you a little more about the software. It’s dB Technologies new T12, a small to medium size line and as such can not be compared to the Flashline. It plots extraordinarily well. The boxes are powered and each box has 9 EQ settings and a gain control that can be used to frequency and gain shade the array. Ease Focus 2 will model this, see the left side of the picture. Similarly the Flashline appears to have 5 different settings that can be selected to (I assume) frequency shade the array.
The picture is of a 12K5 1/3 oct slice out to about 300ft. There are 5 microphones and a frequency plot shown for each. You can see the HF loss with distance.
Peter
Hi Bennett,
Given the Flashline GLL file is still a beta file, it’s probably not appropriate to post any detailed plots yet. I posted the broadband plot because as you noted it does not really tell that much other than to valid the numbers that Steve mentioned.
With respect to Ease Focus 2, here is a plot that will show you a little more about the software. It’s dB Technologies new T12, a small to medium size line and as such can not be compared to the Flashline. It plots extraordinarily well. The boxes are powered and each box has 9 EQ settings and a gain control that can be used to frequency and gain shade the array. Ease Focus 2 will model this, see the left side of the picture. Similarly the Flashline appears to have 5 different settings that can be selected to (I assume) frequency shade the array.
The picture is of a 12K5 1/3 oct slice out to about 300ft. There are 5 microphones and a frequency plot shown for each. You can see the HF loss with distance.
Peter
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