Just noticed Carvin's line array is now in stock...anybody planning to try these things? :Carvin.com : TRX3210 3-WAY 1000W LINE ARRAY ELEMENT
Carvin Line Array In Stock
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Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
The horn waveguide and design look kinda meh, and based on the price and carvin's track record the components are probably not the most premium of options. It will probably sound and perform like a typical MI grade box in a "line array" format. I suspect a lot of these systems improperly deployed at biker fests and the like. We're all searching for that bargain product that performs beyond expectations, I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.
The horn waveguide and design look kinda meh, and based on the price and carvin's track record the components are probably not the most premium of options. It will probably sound and perform like a typical MI grade box in a "line array" format. I suspect a lot of these systems improperly deployed at biker fests and the like. We're all searching for that bargain product that performs beyond expectations, I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
It's biggest problem, by far, is the fact that the boxes are square. Meaning that if you ground stack them (Which 99% probably will) you'll have a 0 degree splay. Which will be bad. Otoh, if you splay them, the fronts of the cabinets start separating which causes the line array principle to fall apart.
So basically there is no way to properly deploy these cabinets. I think Berhinger's POS-super-ultra-array will sound better than this one.
It's biggest problem, by far, is the fact that the boxes are square. Meaning that if you ground stack them (Which 99% probably will) you'll have a 0 degree splay. Which will be bad. Otoh, if you splay them, the fronts of the cabinets start separating which causes the line array principle to fall apart.
So basically there is no way to properly deploy these cabinets. I think Berhinger's POS-super-ultra-array will sound better than this one.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
Vdosc separates the fronts not the backs, tell them they're doing it wrong.
I'm not advocating the Carvin product at all, but assessing a sound-making product with your eyes doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
The main problem with this system, even if it sounds great, is that it's affordable, so now everyone is going to own one. And, it's been proven, that 'everyone' has no clue how to set up a sound system. Now they're going to be in a position to get more jobs just because of a simple buzzword, all while being clueless. Great.
Vdosc separates the fronts not the backs, tell them they're doing it wrong.
I'm not advocating the Carvin product at all, but assessing a sound-making product with your eyes doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
The main problem with this system, even if it sounds great, is that it's affordable, so now everyone is going to own one. And, it's been proven, that 'everyone' has no clue how to set up a sound system. Now they're going to be in a position to get more jobs just because of a simple buzzword, all while being clueless. Great.
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
Yes they did with the Vdosc, but everything L'Acoustic made since the Vdosc has made an attempt to keep the HF elements closer together. Coincidence? Since Vdosc was first on the market with the new multi-box line array concept, we will let some things like that slide. Also nobody minds too much because a single Vdosc has the HF horsepower to stand on it's own when the line source breaks down due to too much separation.
Even with Vdosc you really have to process your "J" section differently from your straighter sections to have a well balanced rig. Nobody is going to do that with the Carvin rig....
Yes they did with the Vdosc, but everything L'Acoustic made since the Vdosc has made an attempt to keep the HF elements closer together. Coincidence? Since Vdosc was first on the market with the new multi-box line array concept, we will let some things like that slide. Also nobody minds too much because a single Vdosc has the HF horsepower to stand on it's own when the line source breaks down due to too much separation.
Even with Vdosc you really have to process your "J" section differently from your straighter sections to have a well balanced rig. Nobody is going to do that with the Carvin rig....
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
Tim,
The dispersion pattern of the HF element of a line array using compression drivers is determined by the HF coupler and waveguide, not by spacing.
With a crossover of 1500 Hz, the 10" midrange cones could have a gap as large as 1.5 inches without impacting response much at all
Seeing as this rig can use passive mid/high crossovers, an amp/eq side could easily be dedicated for the down fill "J".
The problem I see with this design (and many others from JBL, Peavey etc.) is the side by side placement of the mid 10 (one is crossed over at 600 Hz) and the HF with a crossover point of 1500 Hz insures that the center to center distance between the 10" and the HF horn is more than 1/4 wave length apart, which means that there definitely will be an off axis suckout (comb filtering) in the crossover region.
Art
Tim,
The dispersion pattern of the HF element of a line array using compression drivers is determined by the HF coupler and waveguide, not by spacing.
With a crossover of 1500 Hz, the 10" midrange cones could have a gap as large as 1.5 inches without impacting response much at all
Seeing as this rig can use passive mid/high crossovers, an amp/eq side could easily be dedicated for the down fill "J".
The problem I see with this design (and many others from JBL, Peavey etc.) is the side by side placement of the mid 10 (one is crossed over at 600 Hz) and the HF with a crossover point of 1500 Hz insures that the center to center distance between the 10" and the HF horn is more than 1/4 wave length apart, which means that there definitely will be an off axis suckout (comb filtering) in the crossover region.
Art
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
The biggest factors with these will be: Are they loud? Are they reliable?......Say what you will about the Carvin TRXn (the "n" for neodymium being they key as opposed to the earlier line of TRX) but I have 4 of the wedges and 1 of the dual 15's for a drum fill and I have never had a failure with any of them. If these follow suite I could see someone doing well with local fairs/festivals deploying about 6-12 of these a side with some subs and a couple of nice consoles. Don't forget to take the logos off
The biggest factors with these will be: Are they loud? Are they reliable?......Say what you will about the Carvin TRXn (the "n" for neodymium being they key as opposed to the earlier line of TRX) but I have 4 of the wedges and 1 of the dual 15's for a drum fill and I have never had a failure with any of them. If these follow suite I could see someone doing well with local fairs/festivals deploying about 6-12 of these a side with some subs and a couple of nice consoles. Don't forget to take the logos off
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
Hi Tim, not to nit pick, but it would be wise to avoid calling the Behringer line array a POS until it has actually been out in the wild and you've heard it.
Hi Tim, not to nit pick, but it would be wise to avoid calling the Behringer line array a POS until it has actually been out in the wild and you've heard it.
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
Agreed that it's not a good idea to evaluate things not yet heard or seen.
I agree with Silas, though, that "affordable" vertical arrays will be the death of our lower-end business. Why? Because in the eyes of a client, one vertical hang of speakers is identical to another. Why would they pay for VerTec, Vdosc, EV, Meyer or Eona ADR when Joe the Mixtwiddler has a vertical array he keeps in his garage and rents it out for $500 a nite?
Agreed that it's not a good idea to evaluate things not yet heard or seen.
I agree with Silas, though, that "affordable" vertical arrays will be the death of our lower-end business. Why? Because in the eyes of a client, one vertical hang of speakers is identical to another. Why would they pay for VerTec, Vdosc, EV, Meyer or Eona ADR when Joe the Mixtwiddler has a vertical array he keeps in his garage and rents it out for $500 a nite?
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
I guess we're all fans of Berhinger now?
I'm bitter because last weekend an ADA8000 went tits up and fried two horn drivers on me. Every in and out on the thing started sending out digital hash at an extreme level.
I guess we're all fans of Berhinger now?
I'm bitter because last weekend an ADA8000 went tits up and fried two horn drivers on me. Every in and out on the thing started sending out digital hash at an extreme level.
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
I'm seeing this already. I've lost a few gigs at a club because a local opening band has a "line array" and will provide for the headliner. All I know is that it's a TVI array. Haven't heard what kind or what it sounds like. Although the band hypes the shit out of it saying "nobody brings line array for the price that we can".
I'm seeing this already. I've lost a few gigs at a club because a local opening band has a "line array" and will provide for the headliner. All I know is that it's a TVI array. Haven't heard what kind or what it sounds like. Although the band hypes the shit out of it saying "nobody brings line array for the price that we can".
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
I was doing a gig with a famous band that shall remain nameless and one of the KT DN360's on 2 of the monitor mixes started making all kinds of noise. So much as to be unusable.
Of course it started right when the hedliner was setting up to go on. The monitor guy for the band said "Yeah they do that from time to time-just bypass it". But if I had DOD or Peavey in the rack-AND THEY WERE WORKING- he would have bitched at them.
It is often how the "real gear" gets a "free pass" when it fails-but the cheaper gear gets accoused of all sorts of things-even when it is working just fine.
I had another FOH guy INSIST that NO PEAVEY gear be used. I Said that I had a autograph in the FOH rack that I just used as an RTA and it was not in the signal chain.
He INSISTED that I remove it. I said I can just turn it off-no big deal. NO IT HAD TO BE REMOVED! He was VERY insistant that all Peavey gear "contaminates the ground and causes noise in the system-even when it is off and unplugged".
I don't make this stuff up.
ANd yes at the gig-I left it in the rack and he made me remove it. Believe me-the Peavey gear was NOT the problem with his mix-just sayin'.
And what the BSS 360's that came up in the default mode and hundreds of thousands of people had no delays for the concert at the tearning down of the Berlin wall?
And we could go on and on.
Yeah sometimes cheap gear fails. Sometimes the expensive gear fails to. Ever been to a high end auto dealership and see all the cars in for repair? If they were so good-why do they have a repair shop?
We all have stories of "real gear" that has failed-and caused all different kinds of problems.
I was doing a gig with a famous band that shall remain nameless and one of the KT DN360's on 2 of the monitor mixes started making all kinds of noise. So much as to be unusable.
Of course it started right when the hedliner was setting up to go on. The monitor guy for the band said "Yeah they do that from time to time-just bypass it". But if I had DOD or Peavey in the rack-AND THEY WERE WORKING- he would have bitched at them.
It is often how the "real gear" gets a "free pass" when it fails-but the cheaper gear gets accoused of all sorts of things-even when it is working just fine.
I had another FOH guy INSIST that NO PEAVEY gear be used. I Said that I had a autograph in the FOH rack that I just used as an RTA and it was not in the signal chain.
He INSISTED that I remove it. I said I can just turn it off-no big deal. NO IT HAD TO BE REMOVED! He was VERY insistant that all Peavey gear "contaminates the ground and causes noise in the system-even when it is off and unplugged".
I don't make this stuff up.
ANd yes at the gig-I left it in the rack and he made me remove it. Believe me-the Peavey gear was NOT the problem with his mix-just sayin'.
And what the BSS 360's that came up in the default mode and hundreds of thousands of people had no delays for the concert at the tearning down of the Berlin wall?
And we could go on and on.
Yeah sometimes cheap gear fails. Sometimes the expensive gear fails to. Ever been to a high end auto dealership and see all the cars in for repair? If they were so good-why do they have a repair shop?
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
And some gear fails with so much regularity you can set your watch by it.
I know that everything CAN fail. I just hate that I was reliant on a cheap piece that ended up damaging other parts of my rig. It was my fault totally and I can accept it. Just don't have to like it.
And some gear fails with so much regularity you can set your watch by it.
I know that everything CAN fail. I just hate that I was reliant on a cheap piece that ended up damaging other parts of my rig. It was my fault totally and I can accept it. Just don't have to like it.
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
I agree with you Tim. But i was struck by what Ivan said as well. I know i've certainly been guilty of the kind of thinking he describes. When the cheap gear fails, i think to myself 'yeah, that's a POS'. But when the Pricey stuff fails i tend to justify it as being the price you pay for working with higher end 'boutique' gear that isn't made in significant enough quantity to be able to wring out all the failure points.... This 'creative' logic is obviously being used to help me justify spending big dollars for something that broke.
Obviously, with the higher end stuff you hopefully get customer service to support the failure. And just as obviously there is a certain correlation between Price and Reliability. But there are obvious blind spots in all our thinking as well.
I keep thinking back to my experiences with some high end British Consoles [names redacted]. I've experienced so many power supply failures and ribbon cables falling off and all manner of other things that i cannot for a minute believe that i've been the only one to experience these. Yet, not only are they still making desks, they are among the first names people mention when speaking of their favorite gear. They certainly make some excellent products, but i can't help but believe there is also some unintentional bias being applied to help us justify our loyalty.
None of this is intended as an indictment of anyone, and i'm certainly as guilty as the next. Just a very interesting study in human nature.
I agree with you Tim. But i was struck by what Ivan said as well. I know i've certainly been guilty of the kind of thinking he describes. When the cheap gear fails, i think to myself 'yeah, that's a POS'. But when the Pricey stuff fails i tend to justify it as being the price you pay for working with higher end 'boutique' gear that isn't made in significant enough quantity to be able to wring out all the failure points.... This 'creative' logic is obviously being used to help me justify spending big dollars for something that broke.
Obviously, with the higher end stuff you hopefully get customer service to support the failure. And just as obviously there is a certain correlation between Price and Reliability. But there are obvious blind spots in all our thinking as well.
I keep thinking back to my experiences with some high end British Consoles [names redacted]. I've experienced so many power supply failures and ribbon cables falling off and all manner of other things that i cannot for a minute believe that i've been the only one to experience these. Yet, not only are they still making desks, they are among the first names people mention when speaking of their favorite gear. They certainly make some excellent products, but i can't help but believe there is also some unintentional bias being applied to help us justify our loyalty.
None of this is intended as an indictment of anyone, and i'm certainly as guilty as the next. Just a very interesting study in human nature.
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
ANd the owners "justify" it by saying "with this type of performance-things are real touchy/picky etc". Yet a Camry just keeps on going and going and doesn't need to go to the shop (at least nowhere near as often).
And to expand a bit using the car market again. There are a number of "fancy" cars that are always in the shop.
ANd the owners "justify" it by saying "with this type of performance-things are real touchy/picky etc". Yet a Camry just keeps on going and going and doesn't need to go to the shop (at least nowhere near as often).
Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock
My concerns with this box are: no mention of array prediction software, 2" coils on the 10s, calculated continuous output of 125dB (no qualifying data on that number) which means actual output is probably less. "17 Hz - 18.5 kHz (-10DB), 85 Hz - 16 kHz (-3 dB)" WTF? I don't see any mention of processor or processor settings either. Just slap some drivers in a box, copy a waveguide design, and make some ad copy.
My concerns with this box are: no mention of array prediction software, 2" coils on the 10s, calculated continuous output of 125dB (no qualifying data on that number) which means actual output is probably less. "17 Hz - 18.5 kHz (-10DB), 85 Hz - 16 kHz (-3 dB)" WTF? I don't see any mention of processor or processor settings either. Just slap some drivers in a box, copy a waveguide design, and make some ad copy.
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