Carvin Line Array In Stock

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

This same logic applies to electronic devices as well. It is more likely that a crappily manufactured chinese speaker of ANY type will blow up/break down/catch on fire/fall from the ceiling than the most expensive US made line array. Now why is that? Positing aside, the fact of the matter is that Chinese manufacturers are INCAPABLE of manufacturing precision products as good as the US/Germany/Japan. They simply can't do it. .

I know of 2 US amp manufacturers who have products made in the US and in China. The China ones are the cheaper ones.

Both of them say that the failure rate for the China units is lower than the ones made in the states. Not that those are high-but that the Chinese ones are lower.

Now you can take from that what you will (and I know YOU will-------).

While I don't like a lot of what China is doing (in terms of world market etc), I would argue that they are capable of making quality goods.

But they have gotten "branded" as making cheap stuff. But you almost never hear of hte quality stuff they make.

For example-electronic parts. Just look at all the electronic parts (that make up the products "made in the USA")-IC's transistors-diodes-capacitors and so forth.

It is because the cost of these parts has come down so much-that many of the "toys" we now enjoy are more affordable.

If basic parts were as expensive as they used to be-there would be a lot less people in our business (and that would probably be a GOOD thing)-but that is another topic.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

To the layman, your logic is sound. But to the person who actually knows whats going on, it borders on unbelievable that you would attempt to pass something like that off as an engineer. Some vehicles cost more because they do not ever break down. They were specifically designed and manufactured with absolutely zero defects in manufacturing and assembly. This is achieved by completely removing the human element of uncertainty from the manufacturing process. A Lexus is ENTIRELY manufactured by machine for that specific reason. Every bolt, screw, nut and stitch is done by machine and there have never been any errors in manufacturing since the inception of the brand. Think back for a second, have you ever in your entire life seen a broken down new lexus? I bet you have not. I have only seen one that ran out of gas, and I live in the Bay Area in CA where there are a bazillion cars everywhere every day.

go Lexus... I find reliability of all cars have dramatically improved in recent decades, mainly IMO due to technology advances. but can they remove the human element from the design process?

This same logic applies to electronic devices as well. It is more likely that a crappily manufactured chinese speaker of ANY type will blow up/break down/catch on fire/fall from the ceiling than the most expensive US made line array. Now why is that? Positing aside, the fact of the matter is that Chinese manufacturers are INCAPABLE of manufacturing precision products as good as the US/Germany/Japan. They simply can't do it. If one were to actually do research and plot the percentage of failed speakers based on their MTBF versus manufacturing origin, what conclusion do you think you would arrive at? I bet you a box of donuts that US made loudspeakers fail less than chinese made loudspeakers.

All things equal? A $10 US made driver vs a $10 Chinese made driver, I suspect you get more speaker for $10 from China.

As Ivan mentioned some manufacturers make the exact same designs on production lines in China and in western factories. We rarely get an opportunity to make strict A/B comparisons, but years ago back at my old day job, a lame purchasing manager ordered a container load of 230v product for US delivery (duh). We had an opportunity to do 100% inspection, close and personal, as we tore down all of them to swap out the power transformer and line cords for domestic voltage. All I can say is the US factory workers were suitably disappointed by how well built the Chinese assembled units were. They apparently shared Tim's prejudices and low expectations.

That is what justifies the price difference. A consumer is paying for the product to work better and have a better chance of not dying, not for the "brand name."

I have long argued that what most people try to define as "quality" is mostly features that are designed and priced into a product. Some professional customers will willingly pay for the features of increased robustness, higher duty cycle, power handling(?), etc. While the vast unwashed consumers are rarely willing to pay up for features that aren't readily apparent at POS.

With regards to the discussion about cheap line arrays. I have said it before and I will say it again, A speaker sounds like its price tag. Nothing more, nothing less.

Often much less in the esoteric audiophool world, in professional sound reinforcement it is harder to phool entire stadiums full of people, so there is slightly less phoolish behavior, but it still creeps in.

Serious professional loudspeaker systems cost more to make, the higher price is a simple consequence if using better components and construction methods. Some value brands can't attract customers willing to pay the full toll, so are destined to exist in medium performance land.

If your speaker was 25,000 dollars and you compare it to a speaker that is 1,200 dollars, the 25,000 dollar speaker is "right" and whatever the other less expensive speaker sounds like is wrong.

I have seen this behavior in audiophool circles, with some very expensive products that weren't even flat frequency response. Some people never notice the king's new clothes are missing. Not so much in professional sound reinforcement (again it's harder to fool stadiums full of people).

Subjectivity defines the price one can charge for their system, and I flaunt this logic at every opportunity. If I am comparing my sound system to someone elses and they happen to use more affordable equipment, I immediately label the offending system as "fake crap" while my brand name equipment is the "real stuff".

I'm shocked.

It serves the industry to be as snobby as possible with regards to equipment-- the more accepting of low cost products an industry is, the less they can charge for their services and eventually everyone works for free.

Perhaps you should start a guild with existing sound companies, to prevent new competitors from entering your market. Perhaps make them pass a test to get a license to mix sound. (I'm trying to be sarcastic).

Lower cost gear (that doesn't suck) is good for the industry (IMO). This will be even better as technology marches forward...

JR

 

[Kemper Watson]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

If Lexus's never break down, what's up with these adds

Atlanta Lexus Repair Shops | Independent Lexus Service in Atlanta, GA | LexusShops.com

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

If Lexus's never break down, what's up with these adds

Atlanta Lexus Repair Shops | Independent Lexus Service in Atlanta, GA | LexusShops.com

Even the best car will need service and the occasional repair after mishaps even if it never failed by itself.

The level of protectionism a lot of people in the sound business are advocating borders on the bizarre sometimes, with arguments along the lines of "Cheap equipment shouldn't exist because it takes work away from the professionals that have invested heavily in expensive equipment" and so on.
"If it is inexpensive it sounds crap, or if the sound isn't crap it will break down, and even if it doesn't break down I wouldn't trust it because it isn't expensive"
Does people in the limo business argue against inexpensive private cars? Does the restaurant business argue against cheap domestic cooking appliances?

We need equipment at all levels to enable performing at all levels. If you deny performes the opportunity to perform at a low cost, you deny the development of performes, and you deny all those performers that never will be able to perform on the big stage.

(Would I buy a Carvin line array? Probably not)

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Even the best car will need service and the occasional repair after mishaps even if it never failed by itself.

The level of protectionism a lot of people in the sound business are advocating borders on the bizarre sometimes, with arguments along the lines of "Cheap equipment shouldn't exist because it takes work away from the professionals that have invested heavily in expensive equipment" and so on.
"If it is inexpensive it sounds crap, or if the sound isn't crap it will break down, and even if it doesn't break down I wouldn't trust it because it isn't expensive"
Does people in the limo business argue against inexpensive private cars? Does the restaurant business argue against cheap domestic cooking appliances?

We need equipment at all levels to enable performing at all levels. If you deny performes the opportunity to perform at a low cost, you deny the development of performes, and you deny all those performers that never will be able to perform on the big stage.

(Would I buy a Carvin line array? Probably not)

Firm believer in the Free Market here, but certain anomalies do exist and it is more with the buyers than the providers. This season some heads were/will be turned around my small market, but it took major, easily apparent failures...like musicians getting shocked and forgotten stage sections to get any notice, while overall sound quality was pure crap from the get go. Hard to sell quality to ignorant buyers when every weekend warrior has a line array. Still fighting the good fight.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Firm believer in the Free Market here, but certain anomalies do exist and it is more with the buyers than the providers. This season some heads were/will be turned around my small market, but it took major, easily apparent failures...like musicians getting shocked and forgotten stage sections to get any notice, while overall sound quality was pure crap from the get go. Hard to sell quality to ignorant buyers when every weekend warrior has a line array. Still fighting the good fight.

The free market depends on good information (price discovery) for the buyers to make informed decisions. There have always been bottom feeders who put out what "looks like" a capable system but isn't, or hobbyists who buy real gear but don't have a clue about how to operate it. Customers for one-shot gigs, who lack experience, are most easily fooled. Repeat customers, who repeat old mistakes, get what they deserve.

In a small inefficient market, even when "free", the vendor must communicate to potential customers the value he will deliver for his fair price. While some aspects of entertainment are often counter-cyclical (people want to forget the bad economy even for while), when things are this bad this long, everybody expects a bargain.

or not... what would I know.

JR

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Of course these are often two different things. Price and value.

Sometimes the more expensive product is a better bargin.

Finding the right combination is the key.

With hand tools-I ahve never been sorry for spending extra money. The more expensive tool generally lasts longer-works better and is easier to use.

This "attitude" does not always translate to other areas. I have made a number of expensive purchases in this crazy business. Some have turned out to be the worst money I have spent. Other times not.

I ahve also made some inexpensive purchases that have turned out well.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Of course these are often two different things. Price and value.

Sometimes the more expensive product is a better bargin.

Finding the right combination is the key.

With hand tools-I ahve never been sorry for spending extra money. The more expensive tool generally lasts longer-works better and is easier to use.

This "attitude" does not always translate to other areas. I have made a number of expensive purchases in this crazy business. Some have turned out to be the worst money I have spent. Other times not.

I ahve also made some inexpensive purchases that have turned out well.

You are giving good examples of imperfect price discovery. You did not have complete information about what to pay for some of those purchases. High priced or low priced is not a completely reliable rule, while many use rules like that or even worse.

In a mass market where there are many transactions, customers share with each other if a product is good or bad, and prices are widely available on the internet, it is easier to determine better and worse values. The problem when selling sound company services is that it is a thin or inefficient market, so buyers do not have access to good price information and feedback from lots of past customers. How many alternate sound company quotes do they get, or past customers do they talk to? Lacking good information they typically defer to use bad rules like "cheapest" quote, etc.

JR

 

[Tim Duffin]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

I know of 2 US amp manufacturers who have products made in the US and in China. The China ones are the cheaper ones.

Both of them say that the failure rate for the China units is lower than the ones made in the states. Not that those are high-but that the Chinese ones are lower.

Now you can take from that what you will (and I know YOU will-------).

While I don't like a lot of what China is doing (in terms of world market etc), I would argue that they are capable of making quality goods.

But they have gotten "branded" as making cheap stuff. But you almost never hear of hte quality stuff they make.

For example-electronic parts. Just look at all the electronic parts (that make up the products "made in the USA")-IC's transistors-diodes-capacitors and so forth.

It is because the cost of these parts has come down so much-that many of the "toys" we now enjoy are more affordable.

If basic parts were as expensive as they used to be-there would be a lot less people in our business (and that would probably be a GOOD thing)-but that is another topic.

I should run and hide when I hear your exclamations of "THE CHINESE ONES ARE BETTER!!". But alas, you might like to know that Crown's chinese made amplifiers are made in china for one reason: So that the manufacturer does not have to pay for the handling of toxic waste, they can simply dump it out the back door. That is the reason why it is "cheaper in china". now, the second part of the story, which I believe YOU do not know is that ALL of the manufacturing machines used to make those amps were made in the US (with a small percentage manufactured in Japan) This is because there are no chinese equivalents for Spin, Etch and clean fab machines. They all come from the US because the Chinese companies themselves wouldn't dare trust a chinese copy of a 26um etch or spin machine-- they want the real thing from the US so that their manufacturing can be guaranteed. So when I say something like "there are no chinese companies capable of manufacturing any precision equipment of any kind", I mean it. Not because I feel like it should be that way, but because the companies who make these machines in the bay area are my clients and I have actually seen them with my own eyes. I have even been present during a congratulations speech from a chinese electronics manufacturing company (a big one) where the US engineers were praised for their development of a new type of measurement metric which increased yields by 15%.

As you no doubt are aware, audio products are very low tech and crudely manufactured, even today. The use of through hole technology and wave soldering is not exactly a "high tech" industry. So, the argument that a company makes amplifiers in china says nothing about precision equipment. I made an amp in my garage using a protoboard and a soldering iron- there's nothing to it. Manufacturing a sub micrometer servo in an artificial heart or an automotive SRS system--that might take a little more skill than your average employee working for 1000 dollars a year with a 6th grade education.

 

[Tim Duffin]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Serious professional loudspeaker systems cost more to make, the higher price is a simple consequence if using better components and construction methods. Some value brands can't attract customers willing to pay the full toll, so are destined to exist in medium performance land.

Many of your assertions I agree with, except this one. The price tag of a professional loudspeaker system is governed by how much the rental company can charge for it. Even if the speakers sound better, the rental company must be able to win jobs by spouting off the most widely known and highest rental cost equipment, the brands which don't make money for the rental company lose value in the eye of the rental company. I bought a line array for one reason-- so I could say I own a real, name brand line array and charge more for everything I am doing. It works really well when bidding against someone else by simply saying "well, of course they don't charge as much, they don't have a brand ____ line array" Only real sound companies can afford real name brand line arrays, so that must mean that me asking twice as much for my services is both accepted and what real sound companies do. If I had purchased the best sounding speakers in the world that nobody had heard of, I would be making a poor investment which would amount to zero or negative returns. If someone wants to just listen to the speakers themselves and not get paid, then your argument makes sense. I on the other hand, would like to drive a Lexus-- so no peavey for me.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Many of your assertions I agree with, except this one. The price tag of a professional loudspeaker system is governed by how much the rental company can charge for it. Even if the speakers sound better, the rental company must be able to win jobs by spouting off the most widely known and highest rental cost equipment, the brands which don't make money for the rental company lose value in the eye of the rental company. I bought a line array for one reason-- so I could say I own a real, name brand line array and charge more for everything I am doing. It works really well when bidding against someone else by simply saying "well, of course they don't charge as much, they don't have a brand ____ line array" Only real sound companies can afford real name brand line arrays, so that must mean that me asking twice as much for my services is both accepted and what real sound companies do. If I had purchased the best sounding speakers in the world that nobody had heard of, I would be making a poor investment which would amount to zero or negative returns. If someone wants to just listen to the speakers themselves and not get paid, then your argument makes sense. I on the other hand, would like to drive a Lexus-- so no peavey for me.

While I don't mind verbally wrestling with you, we are talking about two different aspects of pricing. Unless you are like the Chinese selling solar panels at a loss (I guess they plan to make it up on good karma) the manufacturer generally must sell any product for more than it cost them to make, so they can stay in business (the Chinese solar panel makers are subsidized by Chinese government**). Likewise as you have noted, the sound company customer, must be able to make a profit from owning a speaker system or that sound company will fail. These two perspectives are not in disagreement, but just two parts of a larger equation that must all be satisfied, while I could note that there are more customers for line arrays than just rental sound companies, I don't mind narrowing down the scope of this to just sound companies for this discussion.

JR

*** Subsidized solar panel manufacturers, making solar panels in China, to sell to western countries where the customers are subsidized by the western governments (actually us taxpayers). This sure looks like both governments putting thumbs on both sides of the scale but pushing in the same direction to support sales. This should be a wonderful thing for solar panel customers. Maybe we can mount a huge solar panel to the roof of a Chevy Volt.

 

[Mike McDonald]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Tim
You appear to be sucking and blowing.
In one sentence, you say that the ONLY reason pro audio amplifiers are made in China is due to reduced environmental expense.
Later you seem to say that a person with a grade 6 education making $1000 per year can build a pro audio amplifier.
I can't imagine an amplifier company in the US, hiring a person with a grade 6 education to build amplifiers, and paying them $1k annually.
If that's what's happening in China, that seems to be another reason for a manufacturer to build amps in China. Makes them significantly cheaper than an American-made unit.
Your argument even seems to imply that a Chinese built amp, built by a grade 6 graduate, making $1K per year, will be the equivalent of a North American built amp. They're that simple to build...
That being the case, why spend the extra money? The quality is the same. The amp is cheaper.
Is there some obligation (other than the fact that the more expensive piece of gear is "right" and the less expensive piece of gear is "wrong") to buy more expensive equipment?
If gear that costs more is "right", why stop at paying MSRP for equipment? I could spent 25% over MSRP, then the gear I buy would be even more "right".
If the less expensive gear is satisfactory, why spend more money? Because you want to drive a Lexus?

Sorry, as your customer, it's not my obligation to make sure you can buy a Lexus. It's my obligation to add as much value as I can to my company.
I can think of a great number of reasons to buy North American built gear instead of offshore built gear. Your arguments certainly haven't convinced me to buy American.

As far as line arrays go, the fact that your company has brand _______ line array would not be the ONLY reason why I, as your customer would consider hiring you.
If that's all you come to the table with, you're not satisfying my criteria for value. In fact, if that's the best reason you have for me to hire you, you're not getting my business.

This is the Junior Varsity area. We aren't "Real Sound companies"
Of the companies that I know, who rent sound equipment, the owners most likely to drive a Lexus, are the ones who rent out Peavey and Behringer.

I don't mean to sound like such an asshole on my first post, but this is nonsense.
Your arguments don't seem to hold together. It just looks like a bunch of China bashing.
There are some truly excellent reasons to buy domestically built equipment. Xenophobia for its own sake isn't one of those reasons.
Regardless, this has no bearing on the original post.

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

I on the other hand, would like to drive a Lexus-- so no peavey for me.

Listen with your ears, not with your eyes, wallet, and pride

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Listen with your ears, not with your eyes, wallet, and pride

Still, invest with your brain, not your ears.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Likewise as you have noted, the sound company customer, must be able to make a profit from owning a speaker system or that sound company will fail.

One issue with small markets populated by small businesses is that the cost of running one of those businesses may be so low that it can be operated at a loss and subsidized from the owner's other income for a long time. Meaning that there at any time is a number of rental systems in the marked that are priced such that companies not afforded the option of running at a loss for a long time cannot compete. This skews the end customer's view of what is a reasonably low price.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Tim
As far as line arrays go, the fact that your company has brand _______ line array would not be the ONLY reason why I, as your customer would consider hiring you.
If that's all you come to the table with, you're not satisfying my criteria for value. In fact, if that's the best reason you have for me to hire you, you're not getting my business.

.

Years ago (OK a couple of decades ago) there was a fairly large local university in which 2 companies competed for most of the work. My company and another. We each had "our guy" who hired us for the various events.

i was talking to "my guy" one time about how to get more work. He said that he hired me for all of his events. But the "other guy" was a "gear freak" and hired the other company-because they had more of the "names".

My guy said he hired me because he didn't care what tools got used, and he liked the job that I did, better than the other company.

It all depends who is doing the "buying" and which of thier buttons get pushed and by what.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

One issue with small markets populated by small businesses is that the cost of running one of those businesses may be so low that it can be operated at a loss and subsidized from the owner's other income for a long time. Meaning that there at any time is a number of rental systems in the marked that are priced such that companies not afforded the option of running at a loss for a long time cannot compete. This skews the end customer's view of what is a reasonably low price.

In my market it is the opposite. A large company doing really cheap gigs. I can only guess to control every job? I don't see the financial upside at all...

 

[Brandon Blakeney]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Still, invest with your brain, not your ears.

I invest in what I can afford, I pay cash for all of my gear. I'm not a FOH guy who just walks up and scoffs at what other people have put their blood, sweat, and tears into just because it doesn't have the same name plate on it that I've been brainwashed to worship. Sound is not my full time job, but I do enjoy it and I do the best I can in the small market that I'm in.

 

[Tim Duffin]

Re: Carvin Line Array In Stock

Tim
You appear to be sucking and blowing.
In one sentence, you say that the ONLY reason pro audio amplifiers are made in China is due to reduced environmental expense.
Later you seem to say that a person with a grade 6 education making $1000 per year can build a pro audio amplifier.

Neither of the above ideas are mutually exclusive. When I make posts, I assume that the people reading them have enough understanding of global markets to realize that the labor cost in China is stabilizing, therefore the only current savings via a chinese manufacturer comes with reduced waste handling expense.

I can't imagine an amplifier company in the US, hiring a person with a grade 6 education to build amplifiers, and paying them $1k annually.
If that's what's happening in China, that seems to be another reason for a manufacturer to build amps in China. Makes them significantly cheaper than an American-made unit.

Are you really so cruel to think that it is perfectly OK for companies to treat their workers as modern day slaves? Good for you, hope you don't ever have to suffer the same fate.

Your argument even seems to imply that a Chinese built amp, built by a grade 6 graduate, making $1K per year, will be the equivalent of a North American built amp. They're that simple to build...


That being the case, why spend the extra money? The quality is the same. The amp is cheaper.

The word "cheaper" in the US means that someone made less money in the supply chain. The word "cheaper" in China means that there is a large amount of fraud and lying happening behind the scenes. That is the difference.

Is there some obligation (other than the fact that the more expensive piece of gear is "right" and the less expensive piece of gear is "wrong") to buy more expensive equipment?If gear that costs more is "right", why stop at paying MSRP for equipment? I could spent 25% over MSRP, then the gear I buy would be even more "right". If the less expensive gear is satisfactory, why spend more money? Because you want to drive a Lexus?

Not at all, you can feel free to work for less than minimum wage all your life.

Sorry, as your customer, it's not my obligation to make sure you can buy a Lexus. It's my obligation to add as much value as I can to my company.
I can think of a great number of reasons to buy North American built gear instead of offshore built gear. Your arguments certainly haven't convinced me to buy American.

Ok, how about this-- since you think that Chinese manufacturers are just as good as the US versions, I will volunteer to rip out all of the US made life safety equipment from your family car. That means that all of the US made airbag components and sensors will now be replaced with fake chinese versions which the chinese claim are "exactry the same quarity." Hope neither you or any of your family die in an accident...

As far as line arrays go, the fact that your company has brand _______ line array would not be the ONLY reason why I, as your customer would consider hiring you.

Unfortunately, if the artist demands a JBL line array, you WILL be going with me or you won't get the show at all.

If that's all you come to the table with, you're not satisfying my criteria for value. In fact, if that's the best reason you have for me to hire you, you're not getting my business.

This is the Junior Varsity area. We aren't "Real Sound companies"

Well, you are not, obviously.

Of the companies that I know, who rent sound equipment, the owners most likely to drive a Lexus, are the ones who rent out Peavey and Behringer.

I don't mean to sound like such an asshole on my first post, but this is nonsense.
Your arguments don't seem to hold together. It just looks like a bunch of China bashing.
There are some truly excellent reasons to buy domestically built equipment. Xenophobia for its own sake isn't one of those reasons.
Regardless, this has no bearing on the original post.

 

[Steve Milner]

Wow... Tim... I don't know you or have any interest in this beyond having passively followed this topic as it's been growing the past few days... But I'm disappointed.

This community has been such a great place for open sharing and debate of ideas and opinions... Brilliant people coming together with open minds to learn and exchange knowledge.

I'm sure you do good work and work hard to run your business, but with all due respect, your embarrassing us all. Suggesting phrases in quotes from Chinese manufacturers with the (L)s changed to (R)s... Really?

Is that really where you want to take this forum?

When people like JR, Ivan, Per, John C, Kemper & Kristian take time out of their lives to weigh in on a topic, I'm dying to hear what they have to say... I appreciate and look forward everyday to their willingness to share their knowledge and I'm disappointed that all their names now show up alongside your embarrassing comments as the 2nd search result when anyone googles "carvin line array".

You're absolutely entitled to your opinions and I honestly appreciate your willingness to share them. I'm sure you have a large wealth of knowledge and experience to share too, but it's hard to listen when intelligent debate breaks down to such low levels.

Respect-