Presonus StudioLive Smaart

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Adam Black

Adam Black

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May 17, 2011
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www.rationalacoustics.com
Grant Conklin said:
And this is why I kinda wish F-A had not done this for Presonus. Presonus is really muddying the waters where professional tools are concerned. Their partnership with Rational Acoustics is equally disturbing. After all the effort some of us (including Rational Acoustics) go to in educating people, Presonus deliberately tries to destroy it with their misleading "shoot the room" lingo. People are led to believe that they are buying something close to the real deal, and many of these consumers wouldn't know where to put the microphone to determine a delay time, or why they did so, much less understand the limitations of the Presonus version of Smaart.
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Grant,

I don't wish to hijack the thread, but I am interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the Smaart matter. So if you'd like to expound on this or discuss it, please feel free to contact me directly. I don't mean this in a confrontational regard, nor do I wish to limit public expression. Just wanted to let you know that I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on the matter.

Sincerely,

-A
 
Re: Fulcrum Acoustics New Active Powered FA Series Review

Adam Black said:
Grant,

I don't wish to hijack the thread, but I am interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the Smaart matter. So if you'd like to expound on this or discuss it, please feel free to contact me directly. I don't mean this in a confrontational regard, nor do I wish to limit public expression. Just wanted to let you know that I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on the matter.

Sincerely,

-A
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Thanks Adam, and just so the rest of you know, Adam and I had a good exchange by e-mail. I'm not sure if I should include any of those comments here. I think it will be sufficient to just point you all to the Presonus website, and decide for yourself if you think Presonus is presenting an accurate picture of what their stripped down version of Smaart can do: PreSonus | Virtual StudioLive - Smaart
 
Re: Fulcrum Acoustics New Active Powered FA Series Review

Brent Handy said:
When it comes to DAWs, math is math. There is no sonic difference, unless colour is designed in.
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I can't contribute to the conversation at large, but I do have experience with some of the math involved, and I'd argue that math is not always math. Often times there are multiple methods or calculations to achieve the desired result. Other times the math itself isn't well defined or has varying definitions. Sometimes the precise calculations are proprietary and are unknown by competitors. Computationally, in the digital realm, even how the numbers are represented can change the result. So while at times math may be math, it isn't always such.

-A
 
Presonus StudioLive Smaart

Grant Conklin said:
Thanks Adam, and just so the rest of you know, Adam and I had a good exchange by e-mail. I'm not sure if I should include any of those comments here. I think it will be sufficient to just point you all to the Presonus website, and decide for yourself if you think Presonus is presenting an accurate picture of what their stripped down version of Smaart can do: PreSonus | Virtual StudioLive - Smaart
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I don't know where to begin.... They make it sound really easy, wizard-driven, and it has nice eye candy. They grossly generalize about some topics. If I were a prospect, a notch or 2 beyond the beginner stage, the marketing presented looks like real science, on my side.

Mostly it looks like single channel measurement, except for delay wizard. Using delays on audio groups is an interesting limitation of the console I was unaware of.

There appears to be an interesting feature that I hope Adam can include in v7.5....
The Smaart Room Analysis (SRA) Wizard is an automated process that guides you through the steps of acquiring a frequency-response trace and then overlays the resulting trace on the VSL display for a StudioLive 24.4.2 or StudioLive 16.4.2 Fat Channel parametric EQ. You can then adjust the parametric EQ to get rid of unwanted anomalies in the room.
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I'm all about getting rid of unwanted anomalies! Oh, wait, that's the name of the local opener... :lol: But with Smaart, the fat channel can fix the room? Wow. I want. Seriously.

To answer your question, is Presonus presenting a accurate picture of what their version of Smaart can do... The copy is carefully written; they don't make promises, they give examples. The graphics will work as advertised, I'm sure. Just getting a pretty picture on screen will suffice for most users (look at how many Smaart rigs you see running exclusively in RTA mode). The really beneficial module is the delay wizard, and the user has to kludge his mixing workflow to implement it. I doubt it will get used anywhere near as often as it's needed, if only because it doesn't have a real time color picture to display.

Yeah, I'm cynical.

I'm not sure how I feel about the relationship between Rational's flagship product and this licensee's implementation and marketing.
 
Presonus StudioLive Smaart

I didn't want to hijack the Fulcrum thread with this. Tim, you said:

Tim McCulloch said:
I don't know where to begin.... They make it sound really easy, wizard-driven, and it has nice eye candy. They grossly generalize about some topics. If I were a prospect, a notch or 2 beyond the beginner stage, the marketing presented looks like real science, on my side.

Mostly it looks like single channel measurement, except for delay wizard. Using delays on audio groups is an interesting limitation of the console I was unaware of.

There appears to be an interesting feature that I hope Adam can include in v7.5.... I'm all about getting rid of unwanted anomalies! Oh, wait, that's the name of the local opener... :lol: But with Smaart, the fat channel can fix the room? Wow. I want. Seriously.

To answer your question, is Presonus presenting a accurate picture of what their version of Smaart can do... The copy is carefully written; they don't make promises, they give examples. The graphics will work as advertised, I'm sure. Just getting a pretty picture on screen will suffice for most users (look at how many Smaart rigs you see running exclusively in RTA mode). The really beneficial module is the delay wizard, and the user has to kludge his mixing workflow to implement it. I doubt it will get used anywhere near as often as it's needed, if only because it doesn't have a real time color picture to display.

Yeah, I'm cynical.

I'm not sure how I feel about the relationship between Rational's flagship product and this licensee's implementation and marketing.
Click to expand...


In your statement you pretty much nailed where I'm at, a notch or 2 above beginner. I've yet to utilize Presonus Smaart for anything more than ringing out monitors and watching the pretty lights on my mains EQ. I've not dabbled in the wizards yet.

So for those who are familiar with it, how would you suggest a bar fly like me utilize Presonus Smaart for room analysis?
 
Re: Presonus StudioLive Smaart

I am a happy Personus user and I think the Smaart stuff is pretty cool and I can see how it might be a good learning tool for some, but I have never used it. I think the best RTA is your ears, and running pink noise through your system is a good way of never being asked back to a venue! As far as the delay wizard - well delay times are not really that hard to calculate. However, I too would be interested in hearing from any of you who use the Personus Smaart features and are happy with it. I'm open to suggestions.
 
Re: Presonus StudioLive Smaart

Some of the PreSonus marketing may be seen as aggressive, yes. Props to Tim McCulloch for taking a close look at it.

Professional users of dedicated analysis software will quickly realize that the implementation lacks most of the capability that makes Smaart a professional tool. The transfer function 'wizard' displays a 1/3rd octave smoothed trace, without coherence or phase, or live impulse response. Also, the Eq on the 24.4.2 Fat channel is limited for Smaart, so users can't make high Q boosts or any potentially damaging choices - the Eq on the 16.4.2 doesn't even have variable Q!

I am comfortable saying that 98% of the users I've encountered since being involved with the project had never even heard of dual channel FFT analysis; had never even considered using a parametric equalizer to Eq their systems, and weren't aware of measurement technology aside from "oh you mean that thing with a RTA mic and a Driverack?". In fact, I've had many discussions with PreSonus folk about why the GEq isn't the best tool to tune a speaker system.

FWIW, the SRA wizard does guide a user to a point where they can make better Eq decisions, and thusly a better sounding PA system with their existing gear then they would've had. This was actually our goal with the implementation - provide PreSonus users with some of the information necessary to get the most out of their PA system.

Marketing aside, the responses from the PreSonus community have been great. This benefits the entire audio community, as non-pro users are seeing (and most importantly - hearing) the relationship between system measurement technology and providing quality sound. Awareness goes up, as does the need for proper education, skill sets, and tools.

Cheers All!

[email protected] - feel free to reach me directly if you'd like to discuss any of my points above :)
 
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Re: Presonus StudioLive Smaart

Jeff, for a beginner, the Presonus Smaart software is a good way to get your feet wet with measurement software. However despite the Presonus marketing hype, it is still just a simple analyzer, and is smoothed to 1/3 octave resolution, essentially a fancy RTA with some interesting wizards to help step you through the processes and a user interface built into the console. It'll get you in the ballpark, suitable for small "speaker on a stick" bar band or church system where the budget isn't there to do anything more. Perhaps a step up from the usual tuning a system by ear using a favourite CD trick.

Want to figure out the reverb time of a given room or identify troublesome reflections, or optimize a complex system, or align your subs with the mains? Then invest the time and money to attend a class and buy the full version of Smaart v7.
 
Re: Presonus StudioLive Smaart

Arthur Skudra said:
Lots of classes all over the planet:
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/training/training-class-schedule/

I'm hoping to do a couple of classes here in Canada soon. Anyone here is most welcome to come. Check the schedule regularly, I'll try to post an announcement here and at the other forum when things are confirmed for my classes.
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I am very much interested in this Arthur, I've been looking at the Columbus training session pondering if I should finally make the plunge. Hamilton is much closer and I have some colleagues that could help me out with a couch for a few nights, so that would definitely be more ideal than leaving the country, I might be able to generate some interest with some local guys as well.

Let me know when you sort something out.
 
Re: Presonus StudioLive Smaart

I know something is in the works for the Toronto area, biggest challenge is in getting a venue for 3 days in a row. Will definitely keep you guys updated. Usually we try to do classes in the major cities in Canada once a year.
 
Re: Presonus StudioLive Smaart

Justice C. Bigler said:
I feel like I missed a page in this discussion...Can someone fill me in? :confused:
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You just need to re-boot.

Seems it went from SMAART for StudioLive right to full-out SMAART at warp speed. The SMAART Jr. feature for the StudioLive is nice for what it is: running during show as a way to monitor your monitors running from FOH or if you're using it as a monitor desk side stage. With proper setup, you can see frequencies "hotting up" as a white line, mouse over to it and tweak your PEQ or GEQ before it gets out of hand. That's about all I use it for.

The rest of the added "features" such as setting delay (duh) and such are gimmicks to my way of thinking, covering things that are just as easily and more quickly done with your ears and your feet (pacing off the distance to be delayed, then dialing it in). You don't need a sophisticated software app to figure that.

To continue the "gimmick" theme, I wish PreSonus would make their "improvements" with more substantial features. Output delay is one addition that was kind of nice, but I'd much rather have input delay on every channel. Digital input would be nice, too.
 
Re: Presonus StudioLive Smaart

Chris Tsanjoures said:
Some of the PreSonus marketing may be seen as aggressive, yes. Props to Tim McCulloch for taking a close look at it.

Professional users of dedicated analysis software will quickly realize that the implementation lacks most of the capability that makes Smaart a professional tool. The transfer function 'wizard' displays a 1/3rd octave smoothed trace, without coherence or phase, or live impulse response. Also, the Eq on the 24.4.2 Fat channel is limited for Smaart, so users can't make high Q boosts or any potentially damaging choices - the Eq on the 16.4.2 doesn't even have variable Q!
Cheers All!

[email protected] - feel free to reach me directly if you'd like to discuss any of my points above :)
Click to expand...

The Ai version of the StudioLive consoles from the 16.4.2 to the 32.4.2 is the same in software. The hardware does not reflect the EQ on the surface, but it is accessible on the software channel strip. They said they did not have the room to stuff it in the surface on the new consoles.

As a dealer, I don't think PreSonus is misapplying anything. The console itself is a transition product, for a market dominated 70% by church purchasers. The majority of these people will not use the SMAART Wizard functions more than once, if at all. The live bar scene guys might. The people that really know what they are doing will not need it. The install guys like me will not use it. Whether they develop it into a simple minded user's interface to the full blown program remains to be seen. What I am seeing is people using the RTA and the spectrograph tools more than anything. The StudioLive is what it is. It has it's niche. In that price range, I think you will find the majority of it's owners are not the people squeezing all they can out of it for pro shows. The majority of the owners don't even understand what SMAART is, nor do they want to know. They want to turn it on and have it work for church and that is it. Mark Stone is a smart guy and a heck of a sales manager. I think he knows that sometimes it is not what the console can do for the pros that makes it sell, it is what it POTENTIALLY could do CONCEPTUALLY that makes it sell. Guitar Center used to have a motto when I worked there (when it was a real guitar shop and there were only 5 of them)..."Sell the dream."
 
Re: Presonus StudioLive Smaart

Tim McCulloch said:
www.rationalacoustics.com/training

I haven't taken training from Arthur, but sometime I hope to. I've had Jamie Anderson (one of Rational's owners) and Harry Brill as instructors and think they both teach well.
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I caught one of the owners at Infocomm this year in FL. He was a real down to earth guy, cut through a lot of crap, but because of the users in the class, had to slow things down a bit and could not get into the fun stuff. Unfortunately I had to leave, so I got some bullet points about the Mac version of the software, which is why I went to begin with. I wanted to know Mac was mo betta' in any way shape and form. It's refreshing to hear manufacturers say it like it is, with a little attitude.
 
Re: Fulcrum Acoustics New Active Powered FA Series Review

Adam Black said:
I can't contribute to the conversation at large, but I do have experience with some of the math involved, and I'd argue that math is not always math. Often times there are multiple methods or calculations to achieve the desired result. Other times the math itself isn't well defined or has varying definitions. Sometimes the precise calculations are proprietary and are unknown by competitors. Computationally, in the digital realm, even how the numbers are represented can change the result. So while at times math may be math, it isn't always such.

-A
Click to expand...
I was speaking about DAWs, unless the DAWs use different panning laws, they should cancel in a null test, regardless of floating point or fixed math. This has been proven time and time again. There is what is accurate to the mind and the eye, and there is what the auditory system skews and perceives. Two different things. The things that make the difference are the designed in differences, how plugs are handled, dithering, etc, etc. No two digital audio consoles sound the same, by design. It is not that one computer is adding 1s and 0s better than the other computer.
 
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