I happen to know someone selling 48 boxes with flyware too. He will even deliver if the price is right.
Sent from my GT-P3113 2
Line array for 1500 cap venue
- Thread starter Adam Ellsworth
- Start date
I happen to know someone selling 48 boxes with flyware too. He will even deliver if the price is right.
Sent from my GT-P3113 2
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
It means the BE had enough low end without having to push the system, I've often gotten compliments on the VR218's even from people who didn't like the tops. I guess it's just really all subjective, if you're going for the sound levels that Evan is then you probably will need a serious stack of subs.
Most of the clubs I've been in would throw a fit long before someone got to that level of SPL.
It means the BE had enough low end without having to push the system, I've often gotten compliments on the VR218's even from people who didn't like the tops. I guess it's just really all subjective, if you're going for the sound levels that Evan is then you probably will need a serious stack of subs.
Most of the clubs I've been in would throw a fit long before someone got to that level of SPL.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
I have done shows with Evan in which the C weighted peaks (not fast-that was about 10dB lower) were in the upper 130's at FOH. Everybody was happy and having a good time.
And yes there were people standing 1' from the PA with their hair blowing-nothing could be done about that.
That level (and a good bit higher) is actually kinda "normal" for most harder shows.
I have done shows with Evan in which the C weighted peaks (not fast-that was about 10dB lower) were in the upper 130's at FOH. Everybody was happy and having a good time.
And yes there were people standing 1' from the PA with their hair blowing-nothing could be done about that.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
I'm not a huge fan of small format arrays in small rooms. There have been plenty of great examples of installs with smaller lines. I would prefer a larger box with 12" or 15" LF drivers and a shorter array. Look at the KF740 from EAW. I've used it a few times.. its a mid sized box with full sized LF power. Great price point compared to JBL. Older used VDOSC can be affordable these days.. best box out there for the price IMO. Of course you can't go wrong with Danley if you can get your head out of wanting a line array.
I'm not a huge fan of small format arrays in small rooms. There have been plenty of great examples of installs with smaller lines. I would prefer a larger box with 12" or 15" LF drivers and a shorter array. Look at the KF740 from EAW. I've used it a few times.. its a mid sized box with full sized LF power. Great price point compared to JBL. Older used VDOSC can be affordable these days.. best box out there for the price IMO. Of course you can't go wrong with Danley if you can get your head out of wanting a line array.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
I actually saw that posted. I have access to a freight train and/or 2-wheel cart if that helps.
I actually saw that posted. I have access to a freight train and/or 2-wheel cart if that helps.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
That's an improvement over your previous averages, when you said:“Normally my mixes average 103-108dBA, and 118-126dBC."
Of course, the punters in the front rows are absorbing another 10+ dB over the position of your meter.
Unfortunately, if you are not the only act, and you have also done a sound check, and been around a loud load in, you have already subjected yourself and the audience to levels that exceed OSHA's exposure level, and around 10 dB louder than the NIOSH levels.
Exceeding those levels statistically cause hearing damage.
With around a 50 dB noise induced hearing loss at 4000 Hz, I'm one of those fucking statistics.
All about "good n' loud".
dBA Slow
OSHA (1998)
90 for 8 hours
92 for 6 hours
95 for 4 hours
97 for 3 hours
100 for 2 hours
102 for 1.5 hours
105 for 1 hour
110 for 1/2 hour
115 for 1/4 hour
NIOSH (1998)
85 for 8 hours
90 for 2.5 hours
95 for 47 minutes
100 for 15 minutes
Art
Evan,Have a look at the Fletcher Munson curve. 126db at 30-40hz is no where near as bad for you as 126dB at 2k...
I'm all about good n' loud, not hurting people. My average LEQ over 1 hour over the past 10 shows is 102dBA. Show dynamics and powerful low end is all part of the experience. Hurting people is not.
Evan
That's an improvement over your previous averages, when you said:“Normally my mixes average 103-108dBA, and 118-126dBC."
Of course, the punters in the front rows are absorbing another 10+ dB over the position of your meter.
Unfortunately, if you are not the only act, and you have also done a sound check, and been around a loud load in, you have already subjected yourself and the audience to levels that exceed OSHA's exposure level, and around 10 dB louder than the NIOSH levels.
Exceeding those levels statistically cause hearing damage.
With around a 50 dB noise induced hearing loss at 4000 Hz, I'm one of those fucking statistics.
All about "good n' loud".
dBA Slow
OSHA (1998)
90 for 8 hours
92 for 6 hours
95 for 4 hours
97 for 3 hours
100 for 2 hours
102 for 1.5 hours
105 for 1 hour
110 for 1/2 hour
115 for 1/4 hour
NIOSH (1998)
85 for 8 hours
90 for 2.5 hours
95 for 47 minutes
100 for 15 minutes
Art
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Evan - perfect - thanks for putting this together! Pretty much the range I was thinking, and no I don't think 4 subs per side is unreasonable for this venue. I'm not committed to JBL, it's just what I've landed on in the past. Forgot about the XLC127, I looked at that a couple years ago. I will definitely dig more into all these, including the trap box route. I've no need to rush this. Thanks again!
Evan - perfect - thanks for putting this together! Pretty much the range I was thinking, and no I don't think 4 subs per side is unreasonable for this venue. I'm not committed to JBL, it's just what I've landed on in the past. Forgot about the XLC127, I looked at that a couple years ago. I will definitely dig more into all these, including the trap box route. I've no need to rush this. Thanks again!
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
We will have the perfect product for you in a couple of months. Not much info on it right now i am afraid. Not sure how rider friendly we can get, but can give a run for the money to all those mentioned systems there.
We will have the perfect product for you in a couple of months. Not much info on it right now i am afraid. Not sure how rider friendly we can get, but can give a run for the money to all those mentioned systems there.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
I'm the complete opposite. I hate walking into a room and seeing 4 'big boy' LA boxes. 2 reasons:
-you simply cannot get enough proper curvage to hit the whole room evenly
-you lose all of the Features of a line array.
I see it the most with v-dosc. 4 boxes flown pointed at the back wall and no coverage down front. I'd much rather have double the amount of smaller boxes to properly hit the whole venue.
Evan
I'm the complete opposite. I hate walking into a room and seeing 4 'big boy' LA boxes. 2 reasons:
-you simply cannot get enough proper curvage to hit the whole room evenly
-you lose all of the Features of a line array.
I see it the most with v-dosc. 4 boxes flown pointed at the back wall and no coverage down front. I'd much rather have double the amount of smaller boxes to properly hit the whole venue.
Evan
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Since A-weighting is actually based on human response at normal speech levels and not at concert levels, someone who understands SPL weighting can often play around with the frequency content to get greater perceived loudness for a given overall A-weighted SPL level. Conversely, a system optimized for speech intelligibility may exhibit higher A-weighted SPL levels than might seem associated with the perceived loudness.
OSHA and NIOSH also do not actually limit the source noise levels, only the resulting exposure. That could mean reducing the source levels but it can also involve active measures such as hearing protection or administrative measures such as limiting the time one is exposed. For employees it is quite common to have source levels well over those allowed and to employ active and/or administrative measures to reduce their exposure, that is a bit more challenging to apply to an audience of non-employees that can come and go as they want and can use noise reduction measures or not as they please.
Also often overlooked is that OSHA actually has a lower SPL level criteria that does not require active measures but that does entail having to establish a hearing monitoring program. If I recall correctly that relates to a 85dBA 8 hour dose.
The point is that while perhaps better than nothing, it is really difficult to directly apply OSHA or NIOSH to concerts or other events except in relation to the exposure of employees over an 8 hour time period. And the related information is often misunderstood and misapplied in trying to do so. Of course the irony in even trying to relate OSHA and NIOSH to concerts is that they address noise, which is unwanted or undesired sound. That may be an accurate application in some cases but some may not like that their performance being considered noise.
The 126dB is C-weighted SPL, a difference of about 25dB at 63Hz and 16dB at 125Hz from A-weighting, thus the 13dB to 18dB lower A-weighted levels. That's also the peak levels with the average levels being lower and I'm guessing those are more a "we were typically around 117dBC/104dBA during songs" than an actual TWA, LEQ or other statistically derived average.
Since A-weighting is actually based on human response at normal speech levels and not at concert levels, someone who understands SPL weighting can often play around with the frequency content to get greater perceived loudness for a given overall A-weighted SPL level. Conversely, a system optimized for speech intelligibility may exhibit higher A-weighted SPL levels than might seem associated with the perceived loudness.
There are many misunderstandings regarding the noise component of OSHA and NIOSH and much of that seems to stem from the fact that OSHA and NIOSH both address long term noise exposure in the work place, i.e. repeated exposure by employees over multiple 8 hour periods. NIOSH and OSHA don't address anything other the exposure over an 8 hour period and the charts presented are actually expressing how to relate shorter exposures during that 8 hour period to the allowable 8 hour 'dose'. In other words to be compliant you have to meet not only the criteria for any directly relevant shorter time period but also all of the guidelines for any longer periods as well. Thus that chart is not saying that a 105dBA TWA for 1 hour is acceptable but rather that it is allowable only if you also meet a 102dBA TWA for 1-1/2 hours, a 100dBA for 2 hours, 97dBA for a 3 hour period, 95dBA for 4 hours, 92dBA for 6 hours and a 90dBA TWA for an 8 hour period, all of which relate to the 90dBA, 8 hour noise exposure 'dose' that is allowed.
OSHA and NIOSH also do not actually limit the source noise levels, only the resulting exposure. That could mean reducing the source levels but it can also involve active measures such as hearing protection or administrative measures such as limiting the time one is exposed. For employees it is quite common to have source levels well over those allowed and to employ active and/or administrative measures to reduce their exposure, that is a bit more challenging to apply to an audience of non-employees that can come and go as they want and can use noise reduction measures or not as they please.
Also often overlooked is that OSHA actually has a lower SPL level criteria that does not require active measures but that does entail having to establish a hearing monitoring program. If I recall correctly that relates to a 85dBA 8 hour dose.
The point is that while perhaps better than nothing, it is really difficult to directly apply OSHA or NIOSH to concerts or other events except in relation to the exposure of employees over an 8 hour time period. And the related information is often misunderstood and misapplied in trying to do so. Of course the irony in even trying to relate OSHA and NIOSH to concerts is that they address noise, which is unwanted or undesired sound. That may be an accurate application in some cases but some may not like that their performance being considered noise.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
The way I judge it - if my ears are ringing during or after the show, it's too loud. I always have 33 NRR earplugs with me, and wear them most of the time once the mix is dialed in.
In Evan's case, I know the crowd is often louder than the PA. Not a whole lot you can do about 5000 screaming girls.
The way I judge it - if my ears are ringing during or after the show, it's too loud. I always have 33 NRR earplugs with me, and wear them most of the time once the mix is dialed in.
In Evan's case, I know the crowd is often louder than the PA. Not a whole lot you can do about 5000 screaming girls.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Are the 5000 screaming girls screaming about Evan or at Evan....
Are the 5000 screaming girls screaming about Evan or at Evan....
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
I guess it is so loud that they have to disrobe to feel better.
Maybe that is one way to get a girls clothes off----------------
I did hear one guy say at one of out demos (not at Evans gigs) after hearing one of the subs "WOW-Now that's a real panty dropper".
They are screaming as they throw their underwear with their phone numbers towards the stage. I never saw much headed Evans way---------------Are the 5000 screaming girls screaming about Evan or at Evan....
I guess it is so loud that they have to disrobe to feel better.
Maybe that is one way to get a girls clothes off----------------
I did hear one guy say at one of out demos (not at Evans gigs) after hearing one of the subs "WOW-Now that's a real panty dropper".
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Just think how many more you would sell if you added that to your marketing lit.
I did hear one guy say at one of out demos (not at Evans gigs) after hearing one of the subs "WOW-Now that's a real panty dropper".
Just think how many more you would sell if you added that to your marketing lit.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Don't think it hasn't been discussed------
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Agreed. Not seeing the line array mandate for this venue either.
Evan's suggestion about leasing until you find a good system fit is not to be taken lightly for a newly built club-there is a lot of capitol getting used just to pass final inspection already.
Best regards,
John
Agreed. Not seeing the line array mandate for this venue either.
Evan's suggestion about leasing until you find a good system fit is not to be taken lightly for a newly built club-there is a lot of capitol getting used just to pass final inspection already.
Best regards,
John
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
You may also find the use and shows evolving a bit over the first year or two until you have an established identity and market, perhaps another reason to consider leasing.