Line array for 1500 cap venue

Hey Evan,

Interesting to see the iMicro used as front fill. Did you ask for this instead of the FF-2?


Evan Kirkendall said:
My thoughts exactly.

Here's what I recently brought in to a 1600 cap club(which actually had 6x VT4888's and 4 SRX subs per side too)

Yep. 16 dual 18's in a 1600 cap club- it was very enjoyable. :) 117dBC(104dBA) average, with peaks well over 126dBC(108dBA).

Any acceptable PA in a 1500 cap club would be as follows:

Line arrays:
-6 d&b Q1 & 3 d&b B2 per side.
-6 VT4888's & 4 VT4880A(SRX728 substitute) per side.
-6 EV XLC127 & 4 EV X-line sub per side.
-6 EAW KF730 & 4 SB1000 per side
-8 Nexo S12 & 4 Nexo RS18 per side

Trap Rigs:
-3 d&b C4 Top, 3 d&b C4 sub flown, 3 d&b B2 sub per side.
-4 EAW KF850/KF650 flown per side(2x2), 4 SB1000's per side
-2 EV XF, 1 EV XB flown per side, 4 EV x-line sub per side.
-3 Nexo M8, 3 B1 flown per side, 4 S2 per side.

And that's all I can think of for now. Any of those systems, as long as they are properly deployed, properly powered(with controllable zones) and have proper fills will kick ass in a 1500 cap room.

Evan
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Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

Perhaps you have had a bad experience with improperly designed rigs.. But I assure you large LA boxes can be use effectively. There are certainly limitations to when it is good to do so.. but

1. 4 VDOSC is about 6 feet tall Which still gives you respectable coupling down past the vocal region

2. the 15" Driver works pretty good 'uncoupled' and makes up the shortcoming of a shallow array in a small room.

3. You still have to point them 'where the people are' and still need lip fills when necessary.

4. They will always outperform any trap box when properly used.
Evan Kirkendall said:
I'm the complete opposite. I hate walking into a room and seeing 4 'big boy' LA boxes. 2 reasons:

-you simply cannot get enough proper curvage to hit the whole room evenly

-you lose all of the Features of a line array.


I see it the most with v-dosc. 4 boxes flown pointed at the back wall and no coverage down front. I'd much rather have double the amount of smaller boxes to properly hit the whole venue.





Evan
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Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

Jeff Kenney said:
Perhaps you have had a bad experience with improperly designed rigs.. But I assure you large LA boxes can be use effectively. There are certainly limitations to when it is good to do so.. but

1. 4 VDOSC is about 6 feet tall Which still gives you respectable coupling down past the vocal region

2. the 15" Driver works pretty good 'uncoupled' and makes up the shortcoming of a shallow array in a small room.

3. You still have to point them 'where the people are' and still need lip fills when necessary.

4. They will always outperform any trap box when properly used.
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Jeff,

Evan is no idiot, and a well respected international touring engineer. He is not talking about line array theory, output, or coupling. He is strictly referring to the inability to get proper angles to cover a small venue from four of any big boy line array box. The inevitable result is painting the back wall with HF energy, and wildly inconsistent response HF to LF, or at best constant splay angles which basically makes your line array into a trap array. More elements of a more compact array would let him fit the HF coverage to the LF pattern much better.
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

Frederik Rosenkjær said:
Please elaborate on this point. Why would the "always outperform any trap box"!?
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Yes please elaborate this? It doesn't matter how good it sounds if it doesn't do the job correctly. Id rather have old floodlights than a large line array setup improperly for the room. Actually I dont ever mind having the old floodlights so my comment may be pointless, but you get the idea.
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

V-Dosc has a nominal vertical coverage of 5 degrees (more or less), giving you a whopping 20deg of coverage for your half tonne of PA.

I have noticed that there are quite a few boxes of Kudo coming on the market recently at a reasonable price, and when run on LA8s, sound pretty good. Also, as an install box, you won't run the risk of damaging those fragile Perspex Louvres nor of the bizarre rigging.
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

Bennett Prescott said:
Jeff,

Evan is no idiot, and a well respected international touring engineer. He is not talking about line array theory, output, or coupling. He is strictly referring to the inability to get proper angles to cover a small venue from four of any big boy line array box. The inevitable result is painting the back wall with HF energy, and wildly inconsistent response HF to LF, or at best constant splay angles which basically makes your line array into a trap array. More elements of a more compact array would let him fit the HF coverage to the LF pattern much better.
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I know who Evan is. I'm a little shocked and people backing up such a generalized statement when usually quite the opposite occurs. I have used short LAs more than a few times for our events. I can name one situation where the venue actually has an award for one of the best sound systems in the world - Ministry of Sound. We have also used the same configurations on our smaller stages at larger outdoor events (altho that is NOT as typical these days)

4 boxes of VDOSC is actually only 15 degrees of coverage in L'acoustics recommended maximum curvature.. but you can go beyond this when the world is perfect (when is it in audio?)

A short line is still an ideal tool in my kit when the room is right.. When is the room right? Well when it is not very wide and not very deep.. a 1300ish person room of about 80' wide and 90' deep would be a good sized room for such a rig. Trim height would be much lower than you normally would fly your array because of the coverage angles. (so hey a low ceiling room is also ideal for this.. say of about 15' or so) Or.. lets face it this type of rig is happening in a room with a budget... so sitting on stage is more than likely a possibility.
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

Bingo.

I also find it a bit disingenuous for folks who need "big boy box" output specify a compact line array "because it will cover better". Sure, you get finer gradation between elements, but if it doesn't put out enough sound, it doesn't matter.

We have a venue where we hang 4 - 4889 from lifts. No rigging points for audio. Trim height of 14.5' is limited by the 10' overhang that covers the perimeter of the room where about half the audience is. We have to shoot under that overhang if the audience is going to hear the show. Because of these 2 factors it is not possible to trim @ 24' (where I'd like to be, and hang more boxes, too). It also means that more work is required of the front fills. Sometimes architecture requires compromises that we don't particularly care for.

I've spent a lot of time trying to do things "right" and I still do, but after almost 30 years in the biz I know when I'm not going to get what is right. My job as system engineer is to hand over to the BE a rig ready for his/her tuning, sufficient for the genre and venue, and that works with the compromises presented by architecture, band gear, set, video, etc.

The rest of you can piss and moan about this, I'm going to spend the boss's money and get another 16 4889.
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

Jeff Kenney said:
I know who Evan is. I'm a little shocked and people backing up such a generalized statement when usually quite the opposite occurs. I have used short LAs more than a few times for our events. I can name one situation where the venue actually has an award for one of the best sound systems in the world - Ministry of Sound. We have also used the same configurations on our smaller stages at larger outdoor events (altho that is NOT as typical these days)

4 boxes of VDOSC is actually only 15 degrees of coverage in L'acoustics recommended maximum curvature.. but you can go beyond this when the world is perfect (when is it in audio?)

A short line is still an ideal tool in my kit when the room is right.. When is the room right? Well when it is not very wide and not very deep.. a 1300ish person room of about 80' wide and 90' deep would be a good sized room for such a rig. Trim height would be much lower than you normally would fly your array because of the coverage angles. (so hey a low ceiling room is also ideal for this.. say of about 15' or so) Or.. lets face it this type of rig is happening in a room with a budget... so sitting on stage is more than likely a possibility.
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Didn't this thread start out about VRX? Seems quite a gap from there to 4889.
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

TJ Cornish said:
Didn't this thread start out about VRX? Seems quite a gap from there to 4889.
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So far the consensus seems to be that a line array or trap boxes won't work, but for subs I should definitely use between 1 and infinity per side.

Actually the VRX seems pretty ruled out (even I thought it was unlikely) but 4889 would definitely be the wrong box for this room. Hopefully someone fills the niche between those two.

</Sarcasm>

I do appreciate everyone's help... I think I know enough for now. If anything, I can go back to the owners and say, "Hey, I know you prefer a line array, but here's what that's going to cost. Or, we can do [a trap box] system instead which will could sound as good or better for half that. Your call." Again, we're pretty far from the purchase phase, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't excluding an obvious solution.
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

Adam Ellsworth said:
So far the consensus seems to be that a line array or trap boxes won't work, but for subs I should definitely use between 1 and infinity per side.

Actually the VRX seems pretty ruled out (even I thought it was unlikely) but 4889 would definitely be the wrong box for this room. Hopefully someone fills the niche between those two.

</Sarcasm>

I do appreciate everyone's help... I think I know enough for now. If anything, I can go back to the owners and say, "Hey, I know you prefer a line array, but here's what that's going to cost. Or, we can do [a trap box] system instead which will could sound as good or better for half that. Your call." Again, we're pretty far from the purchase phase, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't excluding an obvious solution.
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Here is the approach I would take.

1: Get plans for the room-so people can do a coverage map-both width and depth of listening area. Be sure to state how high the speaker can be placed-without obstruction.

2: Get a budget number that includes speakers-amps-processing. The rest of the system can be "whatever" you want to spend-the sky is the limit. It could be 3K console or a 200K console, that does not affect the speaker system.

3:Come up with some REASONABLE SPL levels desired-and state whether they are 1 or C weighted-fast or slow etc and where you want to be able to measure that level.

NOW you have a decent "target" for a designer to shoot for. If you leave out any one of the above factors-then you will get all kinds of different designs that are not compatable.

I got a call from one of our reps yesterday telling me about how a demo went. He said the customer wanted the demo to be louder. What we brought out was within their budget. The customer said the previous company that did a demo did not sound as good as our products-but was louder. Our local dealer reminded them that what they heard from the other manufacturer was MUCH higher than their budget and it was their "BIG" system-not at all what they were proposing for the actual install.

But they still listened to the larger system and somehow wanted a much smaller/cheaper system to be just as loud. If you want to compare-you have to compare equally-either the same budget-and see who gets louder- or the same loudness and see who is cheaper and sounds better.

Another example-we just recently won a bid in which we did a demo in the customers venue. Another manufacturer invited the customer to a little bit smaller venue that had almost TWICE the size system they were proposing for this customer. Not exactly the best way to do a comparison to get a good understanding of the results the customer would get. But never the less, the customer went with us because what they heard in their venue simply sounded better. The smaller system proposed and ours were pretty much the same cost-or close enough to make that part "equal" when looking at the different systems proposed.

Not a big job-just over 1/3rd of a Million watts. HA-HA.

Set some realistic guidelines for the system and what you expect it to do and cost-and then you can get some reasonable results in the way of designs.

Without that-you will be all over the map in terms of "suggestions" and it can be very hard to make a decision.
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

Graham C Mellor said:
Dare I say point source trap cabs? Line array is kiiiiiinda unneccesary for a room like that. And kiiiinda expensive.
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But don;t you know lyin arrays are better? "Everybody" know that!

YEAH RIGHT

I bet if you questioned most people and asked them what the advantage of a lyiin array is over a point source they could not give you an answer-and if they come up with "something" it would be that a lyin array only drops at 3dB/doubling of distance. But I bet if you asked them how large it had to be to do that-you would get a blank stare.

And while a point source drops at inverse square law-that DOES NOT mean you can't get even coverage. If you get the cabinets up in the air and aim them down-and use the -6dB point of the cabinet for closer people-it is pretty easy to have THE SAME level at the front as the rear of the venue (depending-----)

But they don't understand that-and all they do is simply repeat what somebody has told them-and they won't do enough work to think for themselves.

Currently lyin arrays have their place-but IN MOST CASES it is NOT for installed systems in small venues. That can be done cheaper and better with more traditional approaches.

But lyin arrays are "in" and "cool" and "all the rage"--- Those systems that provide more even coverage are soooo "boring" and not as "sexy".

Whatever turns you on------------------------------------------
 
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue

David Sturzenbecher said:
You forgot to sign your post
-Ivan "Always in Sales" Beaver
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I don't consider myself in sales-I try to avoid that sort of thing.

HOWEVER-EVERYBODY is ALWAYS in sales.

Are you married or have a girlfriend? If so you had to "sell" yourself to the mate.

Do you have a job? You had to sell yourself to the boss.

And so forth.

I just call it like I see it-and some people don't like it-but it is who I am and have always been. I don't sugar coat things and try to find the real answer/cause-not living in a fantasy land. Which of course takes a lot of the fun out of it.

Sometimes the truth hurts-on both sides.
 
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