Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
4 dual 18's per side in a 50' x 80' room?? That seems a bit excessive.
4 dual 18's per side in a 50' x 80' room?? That seems a bit excessive.
Line array for 1500 cap venue
- Thread starter Adam Ellsworth
- Start date
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
I've already advised them of that. That's why I'm starting relatively early... it's going to be 6 months before anything gets hung, so that gives us time to have feelers out for a used system if we go that route.
All true, but for the scope of this thread I'd like to keep this focused on main PA only. I didn't want to write a book on what I've done so far, nor expect a comprehensive guide to designing a venue, because everyone's time is more valuable than that. Just trust that most of the things raised in this thread are already addressed. I and others provided a lot of feedback early in the process on power and logistics and their architect did a really nice job. Already met with structural engineer and overestimated our rigging loads. Only thing I couldn't get was a loading dock. :-( But it will mostly be bus/trailer shows anyway and we've even got shore power covered
Basically, I've been sketching PA ideas in a vacuum and really needed some 2nd opinions to see if I'm on the right track or not.
You're dead on... The owners visited First Ave and other similar-sized clubs from Fargo to Vegas for ideas. But I'm embarrassed to say I have not even been there... I feel like I've worked every weekend for six years, so I don't even know what's outside of town anymore. A trip would be a good idea.
I've already advised them of that. That's why I'm starting relatively early... it's going to be 6 months before anything gets hung, so that gives us time to have feelers out for a used system if we go that route.
All true, but for the scope of this thread I'd like to keep this focused on main PA only. I didn't want to write a book on what I've done so far, nor expect a comprehensive guide to designing a venue, because everyone's time is more valuable than that. Just trust that most of the things raised in this thread are already addressed. I and others provided a lot of feedback early in the process on power and logistics and their architect did a really nice job. Already met with structural engineer and overestimated our rigging loads. Only thing I couldn't get was a loading dock. :-( But it will mostly be bus/trailer shows anyway and we've even got shore power covered
Basically, I've been sketching PA ideas in a vacuum and really needed some 2nd opinions to see if I'm on the right track or not.
You're dead on... The owners visited First Ave and other similar-sized clubs from Fargo to Vegas for ideas. But I'm embarrassed to say I have not even been there... I feel like I've worked every weekend for six years, so I don't even know what's outside of town anymore. A trip would be a good idea.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Running 3 SRX per side may get loud, but it's going to sound awful. Not designed to array like that at all.
"Designed for arraying" boxes would be things from Danley, KF750, and the like. I wouldn't consider KF650 or KF850 to be "designed for large arrays" boxes, even though they are often used as such.
If you're going to do a trap rig, do it right. Same for a LA. Either could work, it comes down to who designs and tunes it.
Running 3 SRX per side may get loud, but it's going to sound awful. Not designed to array like that at all.
"Designed for arraying" boxes would be things from Danley, KF750, and the like. I wouldn't consider KF650 or KF850 to be "designed for large arrays" boxes, even though they are often used as such.
If you're going to do a trap rig, do it right. Same for a LA. Either could work, it comes down to who designs and tunes it.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Agreed, bands playing clubs are interested in money above all else. Almost any system that will cover the room and sound decent will probably pass muster.
Agreed, bands playing clubs are interested in money above all else. Almost any system that will cover the room and sound decent will probably pass muster.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
I think you mean "just enough". As long as they're modern, pretty high performance 18s too.
I think you mean "just enough". As long as they're modern, pretty high performance 18s too.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Better to have 'em and not need 'em than need 'em and not have 'em.
Better to have 'em and not need 'em than need 'em and not have 'em.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Repeat after me: "you can never have too much sub."
Repeat after me: "you can never have too much sub."
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Yeah, you can always unplug the three you aren't going to use.
Yeah, you can always unplug the three you aren't going to use.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
On the list of issues the BE is going to bring up, not enough cabs generally ranks higher than a little bit of coverage overlap, mobile work is often a game of making what you have work. I do agree that for an install it should be done right however.
2xKF850 per side should do that space, perhaps with some front and balcony fills, no?
On the list of issues the BE is going to bring up, not enough cabs generally ranks higher than a little bit of coverage overlap, mobile work is often a game of making what you have work. I do agree that for an install it should be done right however.
2xKF850 per side should do that space, perhaps with some front and balcony fills, no?
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
They will bitch, but if the club is on a route that makes sense and provides some travel money, they will play.
In a small city in South Dakota, probably, but the few groups that bother to advance a show would probably bitch anyway.
They will bitch, but if the club is on a route that makes sense and provides some travel money, they will play.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
This.
Things like conduit and cable paths, sufficient power, adequate rigging capacity in acceptable locations, and sufficient back-of-house space are relatively inexpensive to add during the construction phase, but very expensive and difficult to add later. Also things like acoustical design and reasonable load-in paths. These all get you much more bang for your dollar than buting a PA that you can probably rent or lease initially until proper funding becomes available.
This.
Things like conduit and cable paths, sufficient power, adequate rigging capacity in acceptable locations, and sufficient back-of-house space are relatively inexpensive to add during the construction phase, but very expensive and difficult to add later. Also things like acoustical design and reasonable load-in paths. These all get you much more bang for your dollar than buting a PA that you can probably rent or lease initially until proper funding becomes available.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
I typically use 4 VR218's per side in a room over 200 ft deep and over 100ft wide. They are aux fed and BE's rarely ever push them to unity gain. I'm just guesstimating that maybe a room about 1/4 of the size could get by with less :/ but as they say "smoke em' if you got em."
I typically use 4 VR218's per side in a room over 200 ft deep and over 100ft wide. They are aux fed and BE's rarely ever push them to unity gain. I'm just guesstimating that maybe a room about 1/4 of the size could get by with less :/ but as they say "smoke em' if you got em."
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
How does "unity gain" have anything to do with max output?
How does "unity gain" have anything to do with max output?
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Especially when you're talking about subs. Hard rock, metal.... anything with an "808 drop" fixation... there is NEVER enough sub.
Especially when you're talking about subs. Hard rock, metal.... anything with an "808 drop" fixation... there is NEVER enough sub.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
My thoughts exactly.
Here's what I recently brought in to a 1600 cap club(which actually had 6x VT4888's and 4 SRX subs per side too)
Yep. 16 dual 18's in a 1600 cap club- it was very enjoyable. 117dBC(104dBA) average, with peaks well over 126dBC(108dBA).
Any acceptable PA in a 1500 cap club would be as follows:
Line arrays:
-6 d&b Q1 & 3 d&b B2 per side.
-6 VT4888's & 4 VT4880A(SRX728 substitute) per side.
-6 EV XLC127 & 4 EV X-line sub per side.
-6 EAW KF730 & 4 SB1000 per side
-8 Nexo S12 & 4 Nexo RS18 per side
Trap Rigs:
-3 d&b C4 Top, 3 d&b C4 sub flown, 3 d&b B2 sub per side.
-4 EAW KF850/KF650 flown per side(2x2), 4 SB1000's per side
-2 EV XF, 1 EV XB flown per side, 4 EV x-line sub per side.
-3 Nexo M8, 3 B1 flown per side, 4 S2 per side.
And that's all I can think of for now. Any of those systems, as long as they are properly deployed, properly powered(with controllable zones) and have proper fills will kick ass in a 1500 cap room.
Evan
My thoughts exactly.
Here's what I recently brought in to a 1600 cap club(which actually had 6x VT4888's and 4 SRX subs per side too)
Yep. 16 dual 18's in a 1600 cap club- it was very enjoyable.
117dBC(104dBA) average, with peaks well over 126dBC(108dBA). Any acceptable PA in a 1500 cap club would be as follows:
Line arrays:
-6 d&b Q1 & 3 d&b B2 per side.
-6 VT4888's & 4 VT4880A(SRX728 substitute) per side.
-6 EV XLC127 & 4 EV X-line sub per side.
-6 EAW KF730 & 4 SB1000 per side
-8 Nexo S12 & 4 Nexo RS18 per side
Trap Rigs:
-3 d&b C4 Top, 3 d&b C4 sub flown, 3 d&b B2 sub per side.
-4 EAW KF850/KF650 flown per side(2x2), 4 SB1000's per side
-2 EV XF, 1 EV XB flown per side, 4 EV x-line sub per side.
-3 Nexo M8, 3 B1 flown per side, 4 S2 per side.
And that's all I can think of for now. Any of those systems, as long as they are properly deployed, properly powered(with controllable zones) and have proper fills will kick ass in a 1500 cap room.
Evan
Attachments
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
In a smaller market, though, what's realistic? We can't all be the 1400 cap 9:30 club in DC (with 8 Js per side and 3 B2s per side).
I spent many years touring clubs your size, typically lucky enough to be bringing my own desk through, and while I've been fortunate lately have been touring at a larger scale, I'm sure there'll be a day I'll do some clubs again. I'll be the most happy with a rig that's been well-maintained and properly deployed in the room, be it KF850s, Cs, Alpha, Vertec, and so on and so forth. I came into this industry running production in an 850 cap "theatre" in a smaller market that was one of the big rooms for the town and the small stop for tours hitting larger rooms. The rig was nothing spectacular, but was well maintained, well suited to the room, and sounded pretty decent. It was "fine" on the sub count, but could have used a little more, so I definitely recommend over-building the sub count.
I'm with a lot of other people here in pointing out that a rig is more than just the boxes that get bought. There's processing, amps, consoles, wedges, mics, stands, cables, subsnakes, power distribution, and so on and so forth.
In a smaller market, though, what's realistic? We can't all be the 1400 cap 9:30 club in DC (with 8 Js per side and 3 B2s per side).
I spent many years touring clubs your size, typically lucky enough to be bringing my own desk through, and while I've been fortunate lately have been touring at a larger scale, I'm sure there'll be a day I'll do some clubs again. I'll be the most happy with a rig that's been well-maintained and properly deployed in the room, be it KF850s, Cs, Alpha, Vertec, and so on and so forth. I came into this industry running production in an 850 cap "theatre" in a smaller market that was one of the big rooms for the town and the small stop for tours hitting larger rooms. The rig was nothing spectacular, but was well maintained, well suited to the room, and sounded pretty decent. It was "fine" on the sub count, but could have used a little more, so I definitely recommend over-building the sub count.
I'm with a lot of other people here in pointing out that a rig is more than just the boxes that get bought. There's processing, amps, consoles, wedges, mics, stands, cables, subsnakes, power distribution, and so on and so forth.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
126dBC is inappropriate and irresponsible as you have damaged peoples ears and thats even too loud for people with hearing protection.
to the original poster, a nexo alpha rig would do well in that space for a reasonable amount of money. or if you are set on a line array, what about an ev x array. Its no ones favorite box but its also a box no one will kick out of bed. X array systems can be had for very reasonable money, leaving you more room for a board that will have to get moved less often because someone doesnt accept it.
126dBC is inappropriate and irresponsible as you have damaged peoples ears and thats even too loud for people with hearing protection.
to the original poster, a nexo alpha rig would do well in that space for a reasonable amount of money. or if you are set on a line array, what about an ev x array. Its no ones favorite box but its also a box no one will kick out of bed. X array systems can be had for very reasonable money, leaving you more room for a board that will have to get moved less often because someone doesnt accept it.
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Have a look at the Fletcher Munson curve. 126db at 30-40hz is no where near as bad for you as 126dB at 2k...
I'm all about good n' loud, not hurting people. My average LEQ over 1 hour over the past 10 shows is 102dBA. Show dynamics and powerful low end is all part of the experience. Hurting people is not.
Evan
Have a look at the Fletcher Munson curve. 126db at 30-40hz is no where near as bad for you as 126dB at 2k...
I'm all about good n' loud, not hurting people. My average LEQ over 1 hour over the past 10 shows is 102dBA. Show dynamics and powerful low end is all part of the experience. Hurting people is not.
Evan
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS
Sophomore
Re: Line array for 1500 cap venue
Not excessive at all depending on the application. I have been doing a lot of shows at a 1400 capacity venue here and I bring 6-8 per side depending on who the artist is.
Not excessive at all depending on the application. I have been doing a lot of shows at a 1400 capacity venue here and I bring 6-8 per side depending on who the artist is.