Which preanmps are best ?

J

Jimmy Hardin

Junior
Jan 29, 2013
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Hey guys , Last night i did a Youth rally and they had a Hip hop rapper there and I was hired to do the sound for it. I Have a pretty good system for what i generally do, but Last night he was clipping his channel and almost had the overall mix clipping as well, and of course the main amp was clipping ( Just flickering on the peaks) and i try not to clip it at all but last night was kinda hard not to. I have a behringer sx2442fx mixer and i like it but for hip hop i dont think it will hold up as well as any other mixer , so my question is this. (Personally i believe that it was the preamps inside the Mixer being over loaded. ) So what pre amps are best and for that kind of event what would be the best in these mixers here. Here is what i am interested in getting.


[h=1]Yamaha MG206C[/h]Allen and Heath Zed 24 USB
[h=1]Soundcraft GB2R 16 Compact Mixer [/h]Also , I would like to know something else , I have a compressor and it has a limiter on it . will this help this clipping problem on signals that are too hot, from clipping the mixer and amp as well? i have the compressor as serial not in parallel. I am not a newby at this , I mean i do know what i am doing , but i am just having the problem with the rapper stuff. can anyone shed some solutions that might help?
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Wait, just to clarify, you're saying that you had no more headroom left to accommodate him? And further, why did he have to be this loud in the first place? You might be able to fix the problem by... I don't know... turning the gain down or adding a pad to the input. :p
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Jimmy, with rappers and other screamer types you have to take special care with your setup. In general that mean more rig, bigger components, and screaming into the mic while testing the system before sound check even starts.

Yes it would be vastly preferable to have an A&H over what you have,,, but I suspect you could have simply turned the input gain down on the mixer until it wasn't clipping. Yes I have been caught short many times when the act does not project durring sound check then really belts it out for the show.

You have a couple of choices at that point. You can make incremental adjustments.. input down, monitors up and see if the performer gets upset of altering his monitors while performing... or just ride it out.

Sometimes they scream so much you just turn the input down and the mons are still loud enough.

For this situation I would recommend putting a dual linked compressor in the subgroup (or maybe only one if you run mono). You rout vocals through this group. with the comps set just right you have quit a bit of control over dynamics to the mains... but you do not effect the mons at all.

Your objective should be setting the mix and comps for the best you can make the show and if you cannot tolerate occasional peak lights flashing, you simply need a bigger rig. If you have clip lights on solid... you have big problems.

Was this a wireless mic? If so what type of quality?
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Jimmy Hardin said:
Hey guys , Last night i did a Youth rally and they had a Hip hop rapper there and I was hired to do the sound for it. I Have a pretty good system for what i generally do, but Last night he was clipping his channel and almost had the overall mix clipping as well, and of course the main amp was clipping ( Just flickering on the peaks) and i try not to clip it at all but last night was kinda hard not to. I have a behringer sx2442fx mixer and i like it but for hip hop i dont think it will hold up as well as any other mixer , so my question is this. (Personally i believe that it was the preamps inside the Mixer being over loaded. ) So what pre amps are best and for that kind of event what would be the best in these mixers here. Here is what i am interested in getting.


[h=1]Yamaha MG206C[/h]Allen and Heath Zed 24 USB
[h=1]Soundcraft GB2R 16 Compact Mixer [/h]Also , I would like to know something else , I have a compressor and it has a limiter on it . will this help this clipping problem on signals that are too hot, from clipping the mixer and amp as well? i have the compressor as serial not in parallel. I am not a newby at this , I mean i do know what i am doing , but i am just having the problem with the rapper stuff. can anyone shed some solutions that might help?
Click to expand...

First-was your system loud enough for the gig? Just loud enough, or did you have more headroom? Were you turning down the trim on the artist's mic channel to get it out of the red?

Most preamps on modern mixers, even the "B" stuff, have a pretty wide dynamic range. Unless it happens to actually turn out that I'm wrong about this particular mixer, it's not the direction to go looking for solutions.

A compressor/limiter might help, yes, if used properly, and if the talent cooperates-it is still possible to overload the input channel.

More information on the sound system gear you are using would help.

Best regards,

John
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Tim Perry said:
For this situation I would recommend putting a dual linked compressor in the subgroup (or maybe only one if you run mono). You rout vocals through this group. with the comps set just right you have quit a bit of control over dynamics to the mains... but you do not effect the mons at all.
Click to expand...

Bear in mind that you can pan to a single subgroup and assign the subgroup to both left and right. If it's just a voice, you might as well.
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Max Warasila said:
Bear in mind that you can pan to a single subgroup and assign the subgroup to both left and right. If it's just a voice, you might as well.
Click to expand...

I nearly always have a stereo setup. This enables me to drop the wireless out of the speaker that the "talent" chooses to stand in front of.

When using analog, I normally use a FMR RNC in the subgrup with the groups paned hard left and right.
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Tim Perry said:
I nearly always have a stereo setup. This enables me to drop the wireless out of the speaker that the "talent" chooses to stand in front of.

When using analog, I normally use a FMR RNC in the subgrup with the groups paned hard left and right.
Click to expand...

True. I happen to have a pan on the subgroups on the analog board I most recently used so I could have used that as the vocal channel pan/level control if necessary. Also, in Jimmy's case, he might not have a linkable compressor, so it was meant as a solution in that situation.

Also- I always forget how talented our "talent" is until it's too late, so thank you for reminding me.
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Max Warasila said:
Wait, just to clarify, you're saying that you had no more headroom left to accommodate him? And further, why did he have to be this loud in the first place? You might be able to fix the problem by... I don't know... turning the gain down or adding a pad to the input. :p
Click to expand...

Ok here was how my setup was .

Behringer sx2442fx mixer
behringer ep4000 ( Mains Amp ran in stereo each side giving 1400 watts @4 ohms. 1 set of mains each side)
2 Behringer epx2000's ( Subwoofer amp, no problem there)
This was just the front of house mix.


My gain was set at about 8 or 9 oclock, nearly off. and the fader was at unity. and the over all mix fader was at unity as well, I had to turn my attenuators down on my amp as well. I didnt start with a compressor on him , i did that about mid way through his performance it helped some but i just wonder if the limiter on the compressor would have helped me any?
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Tim Perry said:
Jimmy, with rappers and other screamer types you have to take special care with your setup. In general that mean more rig, bigger components, and screaming into the mic while testing the system before sound check even starts.

Yes it would be vastly preferable to have an A&H over what you have,,, but I suspect you could have simply turned the input gain down on the mixer until it wasn't clipping. Yes I have been caught short many times when the act does not project durring sound check then really belts it out for the show.

You have a couple of choices at that point. You can make incremental adjustments.. input down, monitors up and see if the performer gets upset of altering his monitors while performing... or just ride it out.

Sometimes they scream so much you just turn the input down and the mons are still loud enough.

For this situation I would recommend putting a dual linked compressor in the subgroup (or maybe only one if you run mono). You rout vocals through this group. with the comps set just right you have quit a bit of control over dynamics to the mains... but you do not effect the mons at all.

Your objective should be setting the mix and comps for the best you can make the show and if you cannot tolerate occasional peak lights flashing, you simply need a bigger rig. If you have clip lights on solid... you have big problems.

Was this a wireless mic? If so what type of quality?
Click to expand...

Oh i know , i was trying to baby it all the time he was onstage, LOL It was clipping occasionally, during his peaks. yes the mics were wireless, they are cheap nady mics uhf 4 . i am in the process of getting better ones. my budget is not very big and I am looking at either the Audio Technica ATW-1102 System 10, or the Electro Voice r300. thats about as much as i am willing to pay for one. Thats high to me , but if you dont spend a lot for something it wont be as good. I feel like the system was loud enough , I had just got done the weekend before doing a 10k race for about 1500 people and it worked great so i believe it was plenty loud enough.
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Jimmy Hardin said:
Ok here was how my setup was .

Behringer sx2442fx mixer
behringer ep4000 ( Mains Amp ran in stereo each side giving 1400 watts @4 ohms. 1 set of mains each side)
2 Behringer epx2000's ( Subwoofer amp, no problem there)
This was just the front of house mix.


My gain was set at about 8 or 9 oclock, nearly off. and the fader was at unity. and the over all mix fader was at unity as well, I had to turn my attenuators down on my amp as well. I didnt start with a compressor on him , i did that about mid way through his performance it helped some but i just wonder if the limiter on the compressor would have helped me any?
Click to expand...

Ah! So what you are saying is that the input was too hot at even the lowest gain you had. Gotchya. Well, you can't fix that with a better mixer, though I encourage you to get a better one as you see fit, especially if you feel you want certain features that board is not giving you mix wise.

To solve an input like that, I have one last question. Is it wireless? If so, check the transmitter gain. Otherwise, I want to know what the corded mic you are using is, because that's really hot at the preamp. You'd have to put a pad on that, which are available in many different forms. I'd suggest trying the Whirlwind ones. They tend to be of good quality, and are available at many places.
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

John Halliburton said:
First-was your system loud enough for the gig? Just loud enough, or did you have more headroom? Were you turning down the trim on the artist's mic channel to get it out of the red?

Most preamps on modern mixers, even the "B" stuff, have a pretty wide dynamic range. Unless it happens to actually turn out that I'm wrong about this particular mixer, it's not the direction to go looking for solutions.

A compressor/limiter might help, yes, if used properly, and if the talent cooperates-it is still possible to overload the input channel.

More information on the sound system gear you are using would help.

Best regards,

John
Click to expand...

Ok here was how my setup was .

Behringer sx2442fx mixer
behringer ep4000 ( Mains Amp ran in stereo each side giving 1400 watts @4 ohms. 1 set of mains each side)
2 Behringer epx2000's ( Subwoofer amp, no problem there)
This was just the front of house mix.

Yes i was having to turn down the trim, I had no other choice. lol this artist is a easy one to work with.
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Tim Perry said:
I nearly always have a stereo setup. This enables me to drop the wireless out of the speaker that the "talent" chooses to stand in front of.

When using analog, I normally use a FMR RNC in the subgrup with the groups paned hard left and right.
Click to expand...

I am new to the initials on here ,lol you'll have to tell me what a FMR RNC means. sorry.
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Jimmy Hardin said:
I am new to the initials on here ,lol you'll have to tell me what a FMR RNC means. sorry.
Click to expand...

Try a Google search on "FMR RNC". It gets you a whole page of links to FMR Audio's Really Nice Compressor. The product has been known as RNC for as long as it has been in production.

Mac
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Max Warasila said:
Ah! So what you are saying is that the input was too hot at even the lowest gain you had. Gotchya. Well, you can't fix that with a better mixer, though I encourage you to get a better one as you see fit, especially if you feel you want certain features that board is not giving you mix wise.

To solve an input like that, I have one last question. Is it wireless? If so, check the transmitter gain. Otherwise, I want to know what the corded mic you are using is, because that's really hot at the preamp. You'd have to put a pad on that, which are available in many different forms. I'd suggest trying the Whirlwind ones. They tend to be of good quality, and are available at many places.
Click to expand...

Yes , it is wireless, The Nady uhf 4 doesnt have the -10db pad switch on the mic it just has a knob on the reciever and then a little knob that i have to turn it down with a screw driver. I think i did that a couple of weeks ago. he has a really deep voice and I have a -10db pad and a -20 db pad that goes inline . I mean he was so loud last night that i could have turned down the gain and the attenuators on the amps and he would have still came through loud and clear. lol
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

mackerr said:
Try a Google search on "FMR RNC". It gets you a whole page of links to FMR Audio's Really Nice Compressor. The product has been known as RNC for as long as it has been in production.

Mac
Click to expand...

oh ok, I will do that. I have the alesis 3632 compressor.
 
You have bigger problems than the preamps for this particular event.

Once you clip/distort a signal, there is nothing that can undo it.

So we turn to the whole signal path which starts with your first gain stage, your wireless transmitter .... You set it 3 weeks ago? For this particular source?

Some wireless units can't handle the SPL of some sources, even when turned down all the way.

Next is output level of the unit, and input level of the mixer, followed by the rest of your chain.

I don't know that mixer, but is there a 1/4" input as well? If so, on that level of mixer,
It usually goes through the preamp (you may have to engage the PAD or LINE switch (somewhere near the preamp gain control), or maybe not even at all. It should drop the signal anywhere from -10 to -30dB over the XLR input if you don't have a MIC output on your wireless.

BRad
 
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Re: Which preanmps are best ?

I would start with the very first reply by Max and yes adding one channel of the the compressor to the input channel (if it is set up and gained in correctly) will prevent the clipping from happening throughout the rest of the signal chain and still allow you to get a good signal to the fader. The key is cutting back or padding the preamp gain to stop the clipping at the source unless you are clipping the wireless mic first. If that is the case then stop that first.

Now for the compressor. You have the 3630 so lets put it to work. It has been 10-15 years since I used one of those units but these settings should get you started and work on just about any vocalist, even the rapper. Insert one channel of the 3630 in the vocal input channel you are using. Set the threshold to 0db. Set the ratio to around 3:1. set the attack full counterclockwise to 0.1ms. Set the release at around 1/4 turn from full counterclockwise at approximately 150ms. Set the output at 12:00 to the 0db mark the go about 1/8 turn clockwise to +5 or so. I prefer the hard knee and peak settings but either will work. As long as you don't let the preamp peak you will have a nice improvement in your vocal sound even with this unit. This is a very mild setting. You shouldn't see any compression happening until they start belting it out and then it will start smoothing the peaks. If you need to tame the peaks a little more you can either go down on the threshold a little or go up to 4:1 on the ratio or both. Again make sure your preamp gain is not clipping.
 
Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Hip hop rapper?

Does he take the mic at the grill instead of the normal grip?

I bet this wireless mic was overloaded, had a lot of compression / clipping before it was received at the mic receiver.
Turning down level on the receiver or mixing console doesn't help a thing.
If you'r wireless mic can't be padded enough, I think you'll have to use a better one.

I see this all the time with the shure slx series, much to hot for these rappers, and the compression of these mics isn't that good either.

I would go for a sennheiser ew with a 845 for this kind of users, these can be padded enough...
 
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