Which preanmps are best ?

[Declan Slater]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

On the SLX there's a switch hidden inside under the removable capsule (unscrew), that will pad it down quite a bit, one thing to check, would be is that at the most attenuated position? Jimmy was using the NADY wireless though...

...I bet this wireless mic was overloaded, had a lot of compression / clipping before it was received at the mic receiver.
Turning down level on the receiver or mixing console doesn't help a thing.
If you'r wireless mic can't be padded enough, I think you'll have to use a better one.

I see this all the time with the shure slx series, much to hot for these rappers, and the compression of these mics isn't that good either

 

[Jason Joseph]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Tricks i've learned when dealing with the screamers.. On the mic input gain on the top set to about 9-10 oclock. And then put channel fader a little above unity or until the clip light maybe comes on a little. Leave your output at unity and you should still get a clean voice and signal. if its still distorted then its because the mic cant handle the excess volume..

 

[Jay Barracato]

Telling us what direction the gain knob is pointing without any other information is like telling us how far down you like to push the gas pedal.

 

[Tim Perry]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Mics that overload (and can't be adjusted) can be helped by adding a thick windscreen.

When the 'talent' rips off the windscreen and discards it you are back to square one.

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

You have bigger problems than the preamps for this particular event.

Once you clip/distort a signal, there is nothing that can undo it.

So we turn to the whole signal path which starts with your first gain stage, your wireless transmitter .... You set it 3 weeks ago? For this particular source?

Some wireless units can't handle the SPL of some sources, even when turned down all the way.

Next is output level of the unit, and input level of the mixer, followed by the rest of your chain.

I don't know that mixer, but is there a 1/4" input as well? If so, on that level of mixer,
It usually goes through the preamp (you may have to engage the PAD or LINE switch (somewhere near the preamp gain control), or maybe not even at all. It should drop the signal anywhere from -10 to -30dB over the XLR input if you don't have a MIC output on your wireless.

BRad

Yes i turned them down in the mics a few weeks ago, not just for this event but for all events. you might have hit it right with the SPL's. I am not familiar with what to look for on the mic specs on that . all i know is that the NADY UHF 4 Mic that i have has a dynamic range of 120 DB (Which i believe is a big hype to sell the mic) and the Electro voice mic r300 that i am interested in has a Dynamic range of 95 DB. I believe it does have a 1/4 in. outputs on the board for mains. I am just wondering if i plugged his mic in the 1/4 in. line input on the mixer would that help matters with his vocals. I know that there is a world of difference between 1?4 in. V.S. XLR. I HAVE had experience with that.

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

I would start with the very first reply by Max and yes adding one channel of the the compressor to the input channel (if it is set up and gained in correctly) will prevent the clipping from happening throughout the rest of the signal chain and still allow you to get a good signal to the fader. The key is cutting back or padding the preamp gain to stop the clipping at the source unless you are clipping the wireless mic first. If that is the case then stop that first.

Now for the compressor. You have the 3630 so lets put it to work. It has been 10-15 years since I used one of those units but these settings should get you started and work on just about any vocalist, even the rapper. Insert one channel of the 3630 in the vocal input channel you are using. Set the threshold to 0db. Set the ratio to around 3:1. set the attack full counterclockwise to 0.1ms. Set the release at around 1/4 turn from full counterclockwise at approximately 150ms. Set the output at 12:00 to the 0db mark the go about 1/8 turn clockwise to +5 or so. I prefer the hard knee and peak settings but either will work. As long as you don't let the preamp peak you will have a nice improvement in your vocal sound even with this unit. This is a very mild setting. You shouldn't see any compression happening until they start belting it out and then it will start smoothing the peaks. If you need to tame the peaks a little more you can either go down on the threshold a little or go up to 4:1 on the ratio or both. Again make sure your preamp gain is not clipping.

Thanks i will give that a try. this rapper was clipping the mic first. The EQ is the only thing that wasn"t clipping.

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Hip hop rapper?

Does he take the mic at the grill instead of the normal grip?

I bet this wireless mic was overloaded, had a lot of compression / clipping before it was received at the mic receiver.
Turning down level on the receiver or mixing console doesn't help a thing.
If you'r wireless mic can't be padded enough, I think you'll have to use a better one.

I see this all the time with the shure slx series, much to hot for these rappers, and the compression of these mics isn't that good either.

I would go for a sennheiser ew with a 845 for this kind of users, these can be padded enough...

Yes he grips it at the grill. Bout drives me nuts. I AM looking into getting a better mic to use. the reason i got them in the first place was i was doing a speaking event and i needed something really quick with a limited budget. I have used them for speaking events and they are great for tem , but not singing.

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Tricks i've learned when dealing with the screamers.. On the mic input gain on the top set to about 9-10 oclock. And then put channel fader a little above unity or until the clip light maybe comes on a little. Leave your output at unity and you should still get a clean voice and signal. if its still distorted then its because the mic cant handle the excess volume..

i believe that totally , it does distort and it sounds bassy as well, almost to the point that you can't hear what he is saying . I have to take all the lows off his mic to make it sound loss muddy.

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Telling us what direction the gain knob is pointing without any other information is like telling us how far down you like to push the gas pedal.

LOL Ok What kind of other info would you need, lol

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Mics that overload (and can't be adjusted) can be helped by adding a thick windscreen.

When the 'talent' rips off the windscreen and discards it you are back to square one.

That sums it up right there. lol

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

In situations like this, you could always try using a wired mic. Granted, it won't be as aesthetically pleasing, it will make your audience's (and more importantly- your) ears much happier, as well as improving the mix quality overall.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

LOL Ok What kind of other info would you need, lol

Gain is gain is gain. If you are clipping the input of the wireless, no setting on the board will fix that, if you are clipping the input of the channel, no setting on the fader will fix that, and so on through the entire system.

You came here asking about preamps on consoles, when the apparent problem may be the output of the wireless. How would you feel if someone told you to spend a couple of grand on a new console when that would have no affect on the problem at all?

Every model board, even boards of the same model/brand have different needs when setting the input gain. That setting depends on both the mic and the source on the mic.

I will say it again, if someone tells you "I always set my gain at _______." they have giving you no useful information.

I have found the soundcraft xlr inputs to be very iffy with line level signals. Have you tried running the mic receiver into one of the TRS line in?

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Yes he grips it at the grill. Bout drives me nuts. I AM looking into getting a better mic to use. the reason i got them in the first place was i was doing a speaking event and i needed something really quick with a limited budget. I have used them for speaking events and they are great for tem , but not singing.

Most of rap isn't "singing". But you already know that....

Too many performers grip the mic by the 'business end.' They don't care what that does or how their personal actions sabotage the intelligibility of their words and invite feedback.

Let me repeat that: The don't know and don't care. Almost universally, any attempt at educating the performer will be seen as intrusive to their "art" or simply ignored (even if they acknowledge your attempts).

What can the soundperson do? Act like a rapper for the purposes of sound check. Cup the mic, hold it upside down (pointed at the floor), scream and shout while doing to. When you are done ringing the monitors they will sound average to bad, but you'll be light years ahead of where you were. This is also the time you set the gain staging for your wireless system as has been previously addressed. Be the rapper, use your gear the way he/she will. It's the only way you'll be even remotely prepared.

These kinds of gigs also show off the limitation of budget equipment. Rap/hip hop (and EDM, but that's for another time) stress systems differently than other genres. What works fine for an act at Bob's Country Bunker with the guy that sings Willie Nelson songs is probably not up to a rap show. Rap needs double the subs you'd bring for a rock show and you'll need to get penetrating HF, too, without killing the drivers.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

I am not a newby at this , I mean i do know what i am doing , but i am just having the problem with the rapper stuff. can anyone shed some solutions that might help?

Jimmy.....

I held off until now, but this would have been the first response you got:

You DO NOT know what you are doing, no matter whether you are a noob or not. Take heed of the advice you're given here and just back-track on what you think you know. Your initial post shows that the biggest part of your "problem" is making baseless assumptions and over-rating your ability.

Nothing personal, just saying what everyone else has avoided pointing out.....

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Jimmy.....

I held off until now, but this would have been the first response you got:

You DO NOT know what you are doing, no matter whether you are a noob or not. Take heed of the advice you're given here and just back-track on what you think you know. Your initial post shows that the biggest part of your "problem" is making baseless assumptions and over-rating your ability.

Nothing personal, just saying what everyone else has avoided pointing out.....

+.5 (I can't really talk, considering that I am in his same position more often than not.)

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Gain is gain is gain. If you are clipping the input of the wireless, no setting on the board will fix that, if you are clipping the input of the channel, no setting on the fader will fix that, and so on through the entire system.

You came here asking about preamps on consoles, when the apparent problem may be the output of the wireless. How would you feel if someone told you to spend a couple of grand on a new console when that would have no affect on the problem at all?

Every model board, even boards of the same model/brand have different needs when setting the input gain. That setting depends on both the mic and the source on the mic.

I will say it again, if someone tells you "I always set my gain at _______." they have giving you no useful information.

I have found the soundcraft xlr inputs to be very iffy with line level signals. Have you tried running the mic receiver into one of the TRS line in?

Well, I just didnt know what was actually causing the problem , I just thought it would b the pre amps in my mixer, Everyone that knocks on behringer stuff says pretty much that the pre amps are no good. and thats what gave me that i dea about the preamps, now that i have heard from others in the posts i am feeling like it's more of a wireless mic problem more than anything.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Well, I just didnt know what was actually causing the problem , I just thought it would b the pre amps in my mixer, Everyone that knocks on behringer stuff says pretty much that the pre amps are no good. and thats what gave me that i dea about the preamps, now that i have heard from others in the posts i am feeling like it's more of a wireless mic problem more than anything.

1. Never assume.
2. Start at the source.

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Jimmy.....

I held off until now, but this would have been the first response you got:

You DO NOT know what you are doing, no matter whether you are a noob or not. Take heed of the advice you're given here and just back-track on what you think you know. Your initial post shows that the biggest part of your "problem" is making baseless assumptions and over-rating your ability.

Nothing personal, just saying what everyone else has avoided pointing out.....

Well, I will admit that i don't know all. but when i said that i was just pointing out that i know my way around a board and gear but didnt want you all to think that i didnt know ANYTHING at all about any of it. As far as mixing country , praise and worship, speaking events and things of that nature i do well, but as far as rap/ Hip hop. I Know nothing about it. Sorry if i was misleading in my comments.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

Well, I will admit that i don't know all. but when i said that i was just pointing out that i know my way around a board and gear but didnt want you all to think that i didnt know ANYTHING at all about any of it. As far as mixing country , praise and worship, speaking events and things of that nature i do well, but as far as rap/ Hip hop. I Know nothing about it. Sorry if i was misleading in my comments.

LOL. I have been doing this for decades and I still learn things from this forum. I would not worry about the preamps at this point. They will work just fine. What people really say is they don't sound as good as the ones in Midas, Allen and Heath, Soundcraft, and even the new Behringer X series consoles, etc. which they don't but it is only maybe a 10% or so difference. It will be noticeable to you but most likely not to anyone in the audience at all. All of the other components in the analog signal chain affect the sound as well. A better board will sound better but as far as function the board preamps pretty much all function the same.

As far as someone cupping the mic and screaming into it here is my take:
1) It is going to sound like garbage.
2) If you use a better more expensive mic you will be able to hear that garbage more clearly with less distortion.
3) If you trim the gain back and use a compressor you will be able to hear that garbage without overloading anything else in the signal chain.

Now you too can be an expert with that "Hip Hop and Rap mic technique" just like all the rest of us experts who have to deal with it.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: Which preanmps are best ?

LOL. I have been doing this for decades and I still learn things from this forum. I would not worry about the preamps at this point. They will work just fine. What people really say is they don't sound as good as the ones in Midas, Allen and Heath, Soundcraft, and even the new Behringer X series consoles, etc. which they don't but it is only maybe a 10% or so difference. It will be noticeable to you but most likely not to anyone in the audience at all. All of the other components in the analog signal chain affect the sound as well. A better board will sound better but as far as function the board preamps pretty much all function the same.

As far as someone cupping the mic and screaming into it here is my take:
1) It is going to sound like garbage.
2) If you use a better more expensive mic you will be able to hear that garbage more clearly with less distortion.
3) If you trim the gain back and use a compressor you will be able to hear that garbage without overloading anything else in the signal chain.

Now you too can be an expert with that "Hip Hop and Rap mic technique" just like all the rest of us experts who have to deal with it.

You should do sales pitches. I would buy that "Hip Hop and Rap mic technique" manual any day. Would fit perfectly next to my copy of "Bad Drummers: The sticky conundrum"