A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Evan Kirkendall

Evan Kirkendall

Senior
Jan 10, 2011
903
4
18
Abingdon, MD
www.harfordsound.com
Caution: venting. :)


I fucking hate the PreSonus Studiolive consoles. Why?


-The user interface blows. This damn console feels like a childs play toy. Like how dumbed down do manufactures have to make things these days? Stupid!
-The EQ sucks: +15, or -15. Don't hear a damn thing in between (plus the bar system for Q drives me nuts- musicians don't know what Q is anyway, why not make it something prettier)
-The dynamics SUCK(ok, the gate is usable): The compressor makes me want to kill babies. It sounds bad. Really bad. You slam it and it goes muushhhhh. But, really, there's no sweet spot. It blows.
-Flying faders or bust- what is this, 1999?
-Did I mention the user interface blows? "Look at all those pretty bars" said nobody ever.
-The efx makes me sad. Like, I'd cry if I needed them to actually do anything useful.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Musicians love it, sound guys hate it.

Give me: an x32, iLive, ***01v***, mix wizard, vi1, LS9, 1604, 1402, 1202 over this fucking thing!!!!! :evil:


Ugh. Done.


Thanks for playing along. Now go tell me how wrong I am and how much it'll grow on me. :razz:




Back to regularly scheduled programing.





Evan
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Spenser Hamilton said:
Worst. Mixer. Ever.
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I stopped paying attention to the StudioLive the second that I found out it didn't have moving faders. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life. Yamaha had one digital mixer that didn't have moving faders. It was the DMP 11 and it came out in 1982 I think. Every other digital mixer I've ever seen has moving faders. PreSonus really blew it on that one.

so far I've managed to avoid ever actually having to touch one. I'm planning on keeping it that way.
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

My dislike for the SL came at a gig where I delivered an M7 for the 2 'national' acts that co-headlined a small town festival. The contracted PA provider furnished a SL24xxx which didn't have enough inputs.

My gig was to set up the M7 and go to a hotel room until the event was mostly over. The provider had some minor issues that put him a little behind so I stayed to observe and see if I could help. About the 3rd or 4th band into the day he had a problem on stage, so I offered to mix while he went up to deal with whatever issue presented itself. There was nothing intuitive for me about the UI. I had a band playing so I wasn't going to randomly poke buttons or turn knobs to see what they did but after 30 years of mixing and being reasonably fluent on 3 different manufacturer's digital mixers I thought I could make some edjumatcated guesses. Uh.. apparently not. It did not surrender when used in anger.

The M7 FX sound better, too. ;) Continued agreement on the lack of moving faders, etc.
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

At the time it was introduced I think it was a really good console for those with a low budget needing a digital mixer. The addons over the years has been great as well... It didn't have the remote control, geq's and other stuff initially.

The original model only had 16 channels compared to the additional 24/32 channel offerings of today. For the sixteen channel version the concept is great I think. For the twentyfour channel version it is a stretch. But for the thirtytwo channel version the concept fails miserably in my eyes!

And only four mono subgroups on a 32-channel mixer?! Why are the fx fixed to two reverbs and two delays in the new ai versions???

Btw, the original studiolive has 28 processing channels with its aux inputs. However on the new ai-mixers the aux inputs lost the processing. This means that the new 32-channel board only gives you four additional processing channels compared to the old consoles and on the new 24-channel you lose four channels 8O~8-O~:shock:
 
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Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

I see it has insert points, they'll be pre-everything but at least I could insert my own dynamics, can I get the FX sends out of the console so I can use my own FX without using up the auxes?

Not that I should have to do that on a digital console, but maybe it would be workable...


Chris
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Chris Nixon said:
I see it has insert points, they'll be pre-everything but at least I could insert my own dynamics, can I get the FX sends out of the console so I can use my own FX without using up the auxes?

Not that I should have to do that on a digital console, but maybe it would be workable...


Chris
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You need to use the aux sends and then return it to the two stereo aux inputs or use a free channel as the return.
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

We had a band come to play at a convention that used one of these. They were adamant they mix themselves and then pipe signal from their board into ours. An hour and a half into their allotted one-hour sound check they couldn't get anything sounding right. The person "mixing" was a "sound engineer" full time outside of being in the band and claimed to have used the board already to record their album and mix other shows. However, given his deer in the headlights confusion I doubt that was the case.

Needless to say we had them patch into our snake on stage and run off our board flawlessly after a hasty level check. I did some fiddling with theirs after the show and found that the settings were all over the place, so it's no wonder some channels sounded like talking through a pillow and others were being piped in from 1930.
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Taylor Hall said:
We had a band come to play at a convention that used one of these.
...
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I find that to be a problem unless you work your gigging mixer for each new venue, or at least every now and then...

If you only trust a stored scene that you might tweak ever so slightly to 'perfect' your sound you'll eventually find yourself in trouble when you need to tweak your settings, and due to all those small changes over time the settings might become 'erratic' compared to how a clean setup would be.
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

I think the main problem was that it wasn't set up right in the first place, and every change he made to try and "fix" it only made things worse.

In the end they were the ones with pie on face, and were told they would not be invited to perform at that particular event again due to their actions and attitudes outside of their performance. So win/win for me, really, since I'd never have to deal with them again.
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Well Evan (et al), to each their own.
Owner of two Presonus consoles, but hardly a fanboy. That said, I will say what I found attractive, and some of my pet peeves.
1. UI with no layers. Coming from a MixWiz and a Mackie 1604, I found the transition to this digital very straightforward (dare I say intuitive - sorry, Tim). Workflow is very analogue-esq. O1v96 may do more but at the cost of a complex, trying UI. A transition from analog to that is anything but intuitive. A&H, Soundcraft, and Begringer all use some form of "fat channel" along with a minimal layered approach.
2. Always having used DBX 1xxx compressors, gates, and EQ, I really could not hear differences between those and the supplied in the Presonus mixers. Maybe I'm deaf. Maybe I just don't know what good sounds like. I'll lump effects in there, too. I'd call them adequate. Again, maybe I just don't know (or can't hear) what good is.
3. Overall, I like the metering (all those pretty little green lights). IMNTBHO, best of the bunch.
4. Argue as you will, flying faders are not as necessary as on a board set up with a layered UI. I will grant you that once connected to computer/IPad, the fader locate function is barely adequate. Scenes by default don't store fader positions so in that default mode, no problem. If fader positions are saved, that is another ball of wax. Back to being barely adequate. I do believe Presonus made what may prove to be a fatal error in not providing moving faders in their recently introduced AI line.
5. We can talk all day (and we have) about recallable head amps.
6. Firewire compatibility is suspect - but that can be laid at the feet of Windows and Ricoh as well as Presonus. Ricoh *appears* to be a non-standard implementation of the 1394 standard, and Windows never gave serious support to 1394 in the OS. Hence, without a TI chipset, Windows is out of the question - and depending on the brand (Dell in my experience) you're SOL because of interrupt handling. They appear to have been designed to work with MAC, and work quite well on even an older MAC laptop.
7. There is third party provision for an offline editor for the old 16 and 24 channel boards. One would think Presonus would at least licence the software from the third party, make it work for their baby mixer (the 16.0.2) and the AI. Obviously Presonus does not think this is necessary - they are a Studio focused company, and it shows in their SW development. BTW A&H seems also to believe the offline editor is not all that important on their QU series (another sore point)
8. The low cut filter - a 6db/octave slope? Really? How many people have asked how many times for a realistic slope on that filter, only to receive deafening silence from Presonus.

Bottom line, for this weekend warrior, Presonus consoles were a big step up for me and my clients over my beloved MixWiz. The price point allowed me to get into the digital world, up my game, and still fit everything in the station wagon.
Presonus, IMHO, has made a strategic error in not providing Flying faders in their AI consoles. Others have done it at the price point. That is no longer an excuse. I will be unloading mine soon - eyes on the QU - but not before they provide an offline editor. I may consider Soundcraft because a guy I work with went that direction (and they have an offline editor). And then there is the X32. (editor, and DCAs) Looking better each day.

Best console out there? Hardly. Worst? Hardly.
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Evan Kirkendall said:
Caution: venting. :)
Click to expand...

What, you? :razz:

We've got one of these at church that I (foolishly) helped us purchase hoping it would live up to the marketing sheet. We are going to replace it soon, but I thought I'd reply on balance with some comments to help make to make the unit more usable. I don't hate mixing on it as much as you do, but its not been super reliable, and it certainly isn't great to mix on.

-The user interface blows. This damn console feels like a childs play toy. Like how dumbed down do manufactures have to make things these days? Stupid!
Click to expand...

I agree it is not comparable UI/UX-wise to a pro console, but for a certain use case serves its purpose. At church there are four of us who "run" sound. Really there are 3 people that know how to turn it on and make noise come out of scenes I've built, and me. The simplicity of the interface on the Presonus is an advantage for the surprisingly common use case of these other three guys. This was a significant reason why I didn't originally specify an 01V96.

-The EQ sucks: +15, or -15. Don't hear a damn thing in between (plus the bar system for Q drives me nuts- musicians don't know what Q is anyway, why not make it something prettier)
Click to expand...

The default Q is far too wide, and is like trying to work with an ice cream scoop. I pre-set the Q for 2 bars above the middle (0.6) at the start and usually only go up from there. This helps make it be more responsive.

-The dynamics SUCK(ok, the gate is usable): The compressor makes me want to kill babies. It sounds bad. Really bad. You slam it and it goes muushhhhh. But, really, there's no sweet spot. It
blows.
Click to expand...

I have spent a lot of time finagling the compressors because, like you, I find that they can become really mushy.
For vocals try this:
-Ratio 2:5:1, Attack 2.5ms, Release 50ms. Punch "soft" in and out on each vocalist to see which way is better.
-High pass at 130Hz,180Hz, or 240Hz setting (to taste)
-parametric boost at 12kHz to put some air back in.
I find this is workable up to about 15dB gain reduction.

Dealing with percussive sources would be a much longer discussion for this console.

-Flying faders or bust- what is this, 1999?
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Cost decision. I don't fault them for it. The bigger issue is that the faders aren't reliable. I've seen some really strange artifacts other than merely dead faders: faders mysteriously controlling two channels, or "bleeding" into the level of the adjacent fader. Very odd.

-The efx makes me sad. Like, I'd cry if I needed them to actually do anything useful.
Click to expand...

Use the big hall set short (<2 seconds), and the warm plate (2.5-3.5 second decay). Both are usable as mixing glue. Both need the high end rolled out some from the send to sound balanced. I usually start shelving down around 3.5kHz. Put some 2kHz in them to help with shimmer.

Thanks for playing along. Now go tell me how wrong I am and how much it'll grow on me. :razz:
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As I discovered new glitches and rough edges, I liked it less and less. The recording software is janky, too. That said I've had a lot of time to play on it to produce something useful, and I think I have achieved that goal. It is super capable, rough edges aside, relative to what the price point bought previously, and this explains the general cheer around the console for those that don't have, say, your extensive mixing context.

Unfortunately, in Presonus' pursuit of making something "simple" they have instead produced a console that I believe requires more skill mix-wise for the moderately informed user than a more "complicated" console. I find you have to frequently play the various elements (eq / gate / compressor / fx) off of each other to achieve your desired mix goals. This type of interplay between elements is familiar to more experienced engineers, but will likely leave the newer operator frustrated on their road to mixing maturity.

If I wrote a short guide to "surviving the StudioLive" would anyone be willing to pitch in $5USD to buy such a document?
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Moving faders have traditionally been too expensive for value consoles, and you quickly get into a classic problem trying to gain benefit from digital soft reconfiguration capability, without a WYSIWYG interface. Behringer bit the bullet and rolled their own moving fader to keep that cost in check. This is not trivial to engineer with good reliability IMO, so congrats to them.

SL seems targeted from day one as a quasi-digital console that would not be scary to old analog console users, but any digital console without moving faders will have their own secret handshakes to learn regarding fader updates.

Behringer has raised the bar (or lowered it depending on your POV) in this segment. SL is now competing with what is increasingly being perceived as a compromised interface.

JR
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Evan Kirkendall said:
Thanks for playing along. Now go tell me how wrong I am and how much it'll grow on me. :razz:
Click to expand...

It will grow on you all right... It will grow on you like a bad rash.

I used one, one night, for one show.

I exercised my option to use the iPad interface to mix because I liked the UI better than the console.

I pretty much agree completely on all the points you laid out.

I'd say the rig never did really sound "right" that night, but most importantly, everyone who mattered was happy and I got paid.
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Kinda funny - I had a DDX3216 and wanted to "move up" to a SL so bought one but never could bring myself to unbox it - so I sold it un-opened and bought a Phonic Summit. Once you've had flying faders you'll never go back ;) . I've now "moved up" to a DL1608 mostly to get rid of the snake. Too bad Phonic's US presence totally sucks :( .

Oh, and I have mixed on both a SL16 and the much improved SL24 - they are OK but just not what I wanted to own. I was mostly turned off by the need for a Mac computer to reliably use their firewire update and recording interface (and more recently remote mixing support) - the new versions are definitely a big improvement IMO.
 
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Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

frank kayser said:
8. The low cut filter - a 6db/octave slope? Really? How many people have asked how many times for a realistic slope on that filter, only to receive deafening silence from Presonus.
Click to expand...

This is my single biggest peeve about that board. They finally bumped the HPF up to a whopping 12dB/oct. on the Ai. But the 16 & 24 users are stuck with 6dB/octave HPFs. It reminds me of the "crossovers" in cheap home stereo speakers - a single 50¢ capacitor in line with the tweeter. In this era, the slope should be adjustable from 12-24dB/octave IMO. Or just a harder fixed slope (I'm spoiled by the Venue's 24dB/octave filter).
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

Piling on:
The faders suck just as plain faders, regardless of whether they move or not. Can't remember a worse feeling fader on any console I've ever used. Not to mention they're too close together for any actual mixing.
Solo system is terrible, main doesn't mute for PFL.
Updates inevitably cause something that used to work to stop working, did they ever get it to save channel names?
Gain structure is goofy, no room in the summing bus
Graphic EQ? Huh? WTF is it doing?
I'm sure there's more, haven't had to use one in a while and bad memories do fade over time....
 
Re: A Rant, that most of you will probably disagree with anyway

The only thing that I really didn't like about the SLive consoles was the faders. Moving faders IS necessary. Why the verb singular? Because it IS necessary to move every single fader to the trash and replace them all with something that will actually last. I felt like I could make better faders out of some thin hardboard and aluminum foil...

But for some folks it will still be just fine.
 
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