Arrayable trap boxes...

J

Jon Hoffmann

Freshman
Aug 2, 2012
26
0
0
Philadelphia, PA
Hi all,

looking at a new system for a performance space here at work - I am looking initially at a Meyer UPJ-1P system, 2 flown per side with array plates, and 2 500 HP subs ground stacked on the side of the stage. What I am looking for, is any other powered trap box that is arrayable (horizontally...on it's side), and powered. I know plenty of single boxes that can be flown but in this situation we are looking for arrayable trap boxes. Anyone familiar here with ADR Audio (Bennett, can you chime in on these? Are they pricewise about the same or less from the Meyer UPJs?

Also, anyone who has used the 500HP, would one give a decent amount of punch or is at least 2 recommended, since it is a double driver sub?

Thanks!
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Lately, I've taken a liking to the JBL VP series, though I do not think the horns are rotatable (for horizontal configuration).

Fulcrum Acoustic now has self-powered boxes, and their horns are rotatable in 45 degree increments. The Fulcrum stuff is about as good as it gets.
 
The larger vp are rotatable. I think the smaller are also but I am not 100 percent sure. Anyways those recent measurements I posted are p's horizontally mounted.

I like the vocal clarity I get from them and they also get up and go. In general I think they are a great box we don't hear enough about.
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

When you rotate the horn the interaction between horn and woofer and between horn and box changes and may result in lobing and other anomalies. Some manufacturers can provide polars or balloon data for the boxes with the horn rotated.

Am I missing something or are the eyebolts for the "Flying a Vertical Array" on Page 19 of http://www.meyersound.com/pdf/products/ultraseries/upj-1p_oi-B.pdf a bad idea. It seems like the vertical load would be perpendicular to the eyebolt.
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Brad Weber said:
Am I missing something or are the eyebolts for the "Flying a Vertical Array" on Page 19 of http://www.meyersound.com/pdf/products/ultraseries/upj-1p_oi-B.pdf a bad idea. It seems like the vertical load would be perpendicular to the eyebolt.
Click to expand...

Conventional rigging wisdom would suggest no eye bolt is rated for the side loading, but many eyebolts do have appropriate derating for use at a 90 degree side-pull (in the orientation they suggest). I'm not saying it's a 'good' idea, but it may not be completely bogus either. Of course there are side-pull rings designed for this purpose that would maybe be a better option.

Screen Shot 2012-08-22 at 5.54.06 PM.png
 
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Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Thanks all for the info. I am now looking into the JBL AE Series paired with Crown amps - specifically the JBL AM7212/64 or AM7315/64 for tops and ASB6128 or ASB7128 subs, powered by Macrotech 5000is for the tops and 9000is for the subs. They all seem "properly" arrayable, but again once I put the $$ into the seperate cabinets and amps, I'm back up where the Meyer stuff was pricewise.

I have room for amps in the low voltage room that is near where the stage will be, and it is a climate controlled UPS powered room. Thoughts on the AE stuff?
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

If you are looking at the 7315/64 why not just consider EAW KF650z. I am sure the JBL boxes are good, but the KF650z is universally pretty well respected as one of the better traditional "trap" boxes out there and with UX8800 processing sounds even better.

Or, the Danley SH46 is available powered and should sound great (as a powered alternative since you mentioned powered arrayable boxes).

On the other hand, it sounds like if you are looking at a loudspeaker solution for a performance space where you work and you are thinking of spending Meyer Sound (or Danley or top level JBL/EAW) $$$ you might want to take a bit of that budget and talk with a qualified consultant to help get it right (but for all I know you may well be perfectly qualified but I remember times when I thought I was qualified to be trying to make these sorts of decisions and now realize how far from the truth that is).

Good luck
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Brad Weber said:
When you rotate the horn the interaction between horn and woofer and between horn and box changes and may result in lobing and other anomalies. Some manufacturers can provide polars or balloon data for the boxes with the horn rotated.
Click to expand...

With the Fulcrum stuff, they have DSP processing designed for their specific boxes, and the boxes use the DSP as part of the design, and not just as an after thought. I'd be mighty surprised if horn rotation wasn't taken into account.
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Graham C Mellor said:
With the Fulcrum stuff, they have DSP processing designed for their specific boxes, and the boxes use the DSP as part of the design, and not just as an after thought. I'd be mighty surprised if horn rotation wasn't taken into account.
Click to expand...
You can't necessarily address all of the resulting differences with DSP, but I am sure they do what they can to optimize the results and Fulcrum does have data for some of their boxes with the horns rotated. My point was to be aware that rotating the horn is not the same as rotating the box in terms of the resulting speaker pattern. When you rotate the horn 90 degrees you may not simply swap the vertical and horizontal patterns but instead get a unique and different pattern, particularly through crossover.
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Greg Cameron said:
Agreed. The ARCS are great. And with the new models, you can tailor the coverage pattern for a variety of situations. They get loud and sound fantastic. But they ain't cheap.
Click to expand...

The new ones don't have the 40º downtilt in the pattern the old ones have. The pattern is symmetrical in both horizontal and vertical, like the similar Meyer JMP-1.

Mac
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Chappie said:
Are you sure? I think the ARCS II are 60° asymmetric (- 20°/ + 40°). The FOCUS and WIDE variants are 90° symmetric.
Click to expand...

Sorry, that's a semantics thing. The ARCS II is a somehow improved ARCS, and has the same specs. As you say, the Focus and Wide have the symmetrical vertical pattern, so won't array well with ARCS or ARCS II.

Mac
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Jon Hoffmann said:
Thanks all for the info. I am now looking into the JBL AE Series paired with Crown amps - specifically the JBL AM7212/64 or AM7315/64 for tops and ASB6128 or ASB7128 subs, powered by Macrotech 5000is for the tops and 9000is for the subs. They all seem "properly" arrayable, but again once I put the $$ into the seperate cabinets and amps, I'm back up where the Meyer stuff was pricewise.

I have room for amps in the low voltage room that is near where the stage will be, and it is a climate controlled UPS powered room. Thoughts on the AE stuff?
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I have a pair of the AM4315-64s hanging in my living room for the home hi-fi. This is the "medium power" version of the AM7315-64. It uses a lower power woofer (3" VC instead of 4") and a 6" cone midrange compression driver instead of the 8". As far as I know the MF/HF horn assembly and the HF driver are the same and the horn assembly is also used in the larger VP series boxes. They're processed using the published JBL settings and I think they sound great in the application. The horn assembly is indeed rotatable. I'm using them in the conventional vertical-cabinet, horizontal-wide MF/HF configuration. I paid about $1700 ea., new, as I recall.

I agree that rotating the horn will change the LF/MF interaction around the crossover a bit. I never found published polars for these, for either horn orientation, although they do exist for the AM4315-90. --Frank
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Thanks for all the replies - I had thought about L'acoustics ARCS when I was looking at what began as an unlimited budget (given that this is a relatively small system). Now I am being told the budget has to tighten up (big surprise there...) so I am looking into the JBL stuff a little more as a less expensive alternative to the Meyer rig. To answer a few questions -

1. I am designing a system for a restaurant that will turn into a club on Friday and Saturday nights, replacing a 70v Tannoy ceiling system that we (I) designed pre-construction.
2. I want the boxes to be flown on their sides, rotating the horn. Understandably this will change the interaction between drivers a bit, but this decision was due to aesthetics, and I do not have a choice there...

I looked into the VP but one of our other properties has replaced the amp modules in theirs many times over (100% replacement, some more than once) due to overheating issues, that, and cost, takes those out of the running...

Great discussion, keep it coming if youve got any other info!

Thanks again guys,

Jon
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Brad Weber said:
When you rotate the horn the interaction between horn and woofer and between horn and box changes and may result in lobing and other anomalies. Some manufacturers can provide polars or balloon data for the boxes with the horn rotated.
Click to expand...

I think that this is not an issue with the Fulcrum boxes as they are all coaxial. The relation between the horn and woofer does not change when rotated.
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

eytan gidron said:
I think that this is not an issue with the Fulcrum boxes as they are all coaxial. The relation between the horn and woofer does not change when rotated.
Click to expand...
For many of their models, yes, but several of the Fulcrum boxes are a coax with a second woofer. I was recently looking at the dual driver DX series models for a project and they did have separate EASE data for the box with the horn rotated.
 
Jon Hoffmann said:
Hi all,

looking at a new system for a performance space here at work - I am looking initially at a Meyer UPJ-1P system, 2 flown per side with array plates, and 2 500 HP subs ground stacked on the side of the stage. What I am looking for, is any other powered trap box that is arrayable (horizontally...on it's side), and powered. I know plenty of single boxes that can be flown but in this situation we are looking for arrayable trap boxes. Anyone familiar here with ADR Audio (Bennett, can you chime in on these? Are they pricewise about the same or less from the Meyer UPJs?

Also, anyone who has used the 500HP, would one give a decent amount of punch or is at least 2 recommended, since it is a double driver sub?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Jon,

I am somewhat familliar with ADRaudio boxes.
Based on your initial idea of flying two UPJs per side, I'm confident enough to say that even if U103's driver complement resembles fore mentioned units, U103 is far from being arrayable box. There are configurations, where you can use two per side, properly splayed, but it is not the top notch solution.
.
.
The ONLY box that arrays perfectly imho is Danley SM60. I heard the setup of two,... I'm not easily amazed ... I was this time.
Audition highly recommended.

With utmost respect

Sent from my HTC One X 2
 
Re: Arrayable trap boxes...

Brad Weber said:
For many of their models, yes, but several of the Fulcrum boxes are a coax with a second woofer. I was recently looking at the dual driver DX series models for a project and they did have separate EASE data for the box with the horn rotated.
Click to expand...

I think the second woofer is crossed over lower to avoid interactions. the change in EASE is probably just because the box is now symmetrical in a different axis

Jason
 
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