Compression

[Lisa Lane-Collins]

Taken over a mixing gig where the incumbent sound techs were obsessed with compression. The boss is most obliging and buys extra equipment as requested, is baffled at my complete indifference to the having of compression......"but why did all of these other techs want it so badly?" *shrugs* Am I doing it wrong or are they?! (Or are neither of us? I mix it till it sounds good, if I don't need compression to achieve that then I don't need it I guess, but why did the other techs?!)

(In context, rock bands in town hall, stage sound kept very quiet, everything to be reproduced through the PA although when I arrived on the scene they had no tom mics just an overhead ). Audience sizes of around 50 people.

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: Compression

Some people almost have their fingers glued to the faders and say that compressors are the tools of the devil. On the other end of the scale some people like to setup compressors to the point that they almost automix so they can go to the bar and grab a beer and chat with the girls and boys ;-)

I like some compression to tame things, fatten up drums and like. However yesterday I mixed some inexperienced musicians with poor mic technique and singing very softly also using ac.gtr + bass and drums for folkstyle music.

There was no way for me to use compression/gates for anything (ok, I had some gates on the drums and slight compression on the main bus) so I had to keep my fingers on the faders all the time.

Using Dave Rat's technique with compressors, busses and dca/vca for live mixing is a great thing when you have a show whith good musicians and fairly consistent levels.

Also, remember that a compressor can act as a limiter so the 'incumbent sound techs' may have used it that way instead...

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Compression

It depends.

Some people will use a lot of compression, others not so much.
Do whatever you want as long as it sounds good and keeps the audience/bands happy.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Compression

From my observation, and personal experience, mastering the use of compression can allow one to achieve a more "produced" live sound. I use both serial and parallel compression with DCA setups and this gets me to where I can dynamically mix a 10 piece band with DCA moves of a few Db up or down. Other times I use very little if I am walking into a strange system. I don't buy the "evil" compressor perspective. Like other complex tools the comps must be learned, practiced and mastered. I even go to the point of judging the abilities of local mixers directly by their understanding and use of comps. Many people don't get good with compression because they don't own many therefore can never learn, practice or master.
Don't fear the monster. Within the attack/release envelopes of the compressor lies the magic that you have heard and loved on recordings your whole life. It is not bad, it is a skill to be learned, not avoided. As with many things, if a commonly used process seems confusing or the results are not understood, it only means we have to learn more. Getting better is interesting. Leaving tools unused seems senseless unless we cannot learn something.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Compression

A compressor is like any tool-overdo it and it it makes things worse.

Some people like it simply because it is "another toy" to play with. And they like to see lots of lights flash. It makes them feel as if they are "doing something"-YEAH-making it sound WORSE!

I personally like a sound that has a lot of dynamics-which means very little compression.

HOWEVER-(especially on digital consoles) I use it on every channel. NOW HOW MUCH is the real question. I typically set it so it start to kick in right around the loudest sound from the musicians. That way it can act as a "safety valve" in case something gets a bit out of control.

Sometimes I "tighten up" on it to help smooth out poor musical mic or playing technique-ie people who can't keep a consistent level.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Compression

I think that there are some vocalists that just don't have good mic technique and/or they have such a huge dynamic range in volume that the situation simply begs for a compressor/limiter.

I also think that if you use compression and aren't good at it, you do much more harm than good

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Compression

If it makes the boss happy, you can set the compressors to make a light show without using them.

It is good to have them if/when you have talent that really needs compression.

Compression is not an all or nothing thing, sometimes a little compression can be a good thing.

Maybe experiment with if they can add something... after the show is up and running.

JR

 

[Tom Bourke]

Re: Compression

Before the day of comp per ch digital mixers I would run into problems with some groups having lots of singers and not having enough matching comps that were good on vocals. Not that I needed them all the time but it sucked not having them when I did need them.

 

[Frederik Rosenkjær]

Re: Compression

It depends completely on what type of music/sonic image you want to make and in some cases for damage control on less experienced musicians.

But there are certainly many types of music genres and sounds that are never going to happen without massive amounts of compression. I'm talking about effect-type compression; especially certain drum sounds.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Compression

Damn, I hear this so often. All you need to do is change the threshold control!!
This goes back to my gripe, that if sound mixers don't have a way to practice, how in the hell are you going to get good at something? Get some free DAW software, grab some prerecorded tracks from any number of Internet sites and learn how to use the damn tool. Really... Anything else in 2013 is just being lazy. If you are passionate about mixing, learn the craft. A magical performance still needs technical know how.

 

[Tim Perry]

Re: Compression

Taken over a mixing gig where the incumbent sound techs were obsessed with compression. The boss is most obliging and buys extra equipment as requested, is baffled at my complete indifference to the having of compression......"but why did all of these other techs want it so badly?" *shrugs* Am I doing it wrong or are they?! (Or are neither of us? I mix it till it sounds good, if I don't need compression to achieve that then I don't need it I guess, but why did the other techs?!)

(In context, rock bands in town hall, stage sound kept very quiet, everything to be reproduced through the PA although when I arrived on the scene they had no tom mics just an overhead ). Audience sizes of around 50 people.

Lisa, some great replies here but let me raise another point: how do you feel about gates?

Being able to gate items such as Kick, snare and toms may open up a new dimension for you. As many times the same box has comp/gate in it that may be why your predecessors were fond of having a goodly quantity on hand.

 

[Greg Cameron]

Re: Compression

Being able to gate items such as Kick, snare and toms may open up a new dimension for you. As many times the same box has comp/gate in it that may be why your predecessors were fond of having a goodly quantity on hand.

Agreed. Gates are an excellent bandaid for poorly tuned drums that ring too much and can't be fixed with just EQ. If you're mixing a bunch of bands of various calibers in a given night, kick and toms can be all over the place in terms of quality and tuning. A gate can be very helpful for dealing with problematic drums. They can also be very useful for well tuned drums. I don't know many big chair rock show mixers that don't use gates even on the best drum tech maintained kits.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Compression

Damn, I hear this so often. All you need to do is change the threshold control!!
This goes back to my gripe, that if sound mixers don't have a way to practice, how in the hell are you going to get good at something? Get some free DAW software, grab some prerecorded tracks from any number of Internet sites and learn how to use the damn tool. Really... Anything else in 2013 is just being lazy. If you are passionate about mixing, learn the craft. A magical performance still needs technical know how.

With the exception of the previously mentioned "compression used as a drum effect" example, compression should be something that you don't hear. Not everyone can setup compressors correctly. Not every compressor has the same ability to be adjusted. Different items in the band require different compressor settings. Band members who change their stage volume while playing require real-time changes to the compressor threshold.

Considering all of these complexities involved with using compression, it really isn't a great tool for just everyone to use all the time.

If a bass player has good tone on his line-out, leave it alone. If the guitars sound great without compression, don't touch them. If the vocalist has great mic technique and sounds great .... you get the picture.

Now the gates on the drums ..... I do this whenever possible. Gating the toms and kick really opens up the mix and gets rid of all that drum ring lowering the noise floor of the entire mix. This is a great suggestion IME.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Compression

With the exception of the previously mentioned "compression used as a drum effect" example, compression should be something that you don't hear. Not everyone can setup compressors correctly. Not every compressor has the same ability to be adjusted. Different items in the band require different compressor settings. Band members who change their stage volume while playing require real-time changes to the compressor threshold.

Considering all of these complexities involved with using compression, it really isn't a great tool for just everyone to use all the time.
E.

???? We're not talking about everyone, just the person mixing the show! I am trying to understand how telling someone to avoid something makes them better at it? I say during the show is NOT the time to experiment, especially when you are trying to train your ears to hear nuances that are better taught under rapidly repeatable circumstances. We should be giving examples with settings and specific results.
Snare top - for snap and a jump...4:1 or higher..slow attack, fast release...adjust to song tempo.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Compression

Ok I will weigh in on this one. Let me first say that I came from the recording studio before live sound and I had many many hours behind the monitors learning what my various tools did. I have mixed many shows with NO compression whatsoever and sometimes still do if the musicians and vocalists are good enough and I have racks of DBX 160 and 1066 always available and all of the various digital offerings as well. Here are my thoughts for what it is worth:

The only "have to have" compressor settings I use are:

1)Bass guitar if it is run direct. This instrument can be all over the map with dynamics, even more than a really inexperienced vocalist. A 3:1 ratio (up to a 4:1 max) is a good place to start with the threshold set around 0db if you are gained in correctly. You are trying to tighten up that flappy sound and get a more even output (and save massive headroom) without being dull and muddy. The magic happens when you back off the attack a little to allow the slaps and picking dynamics to come through while still having the tightness of the compressor grabbing the peaks. Use your ears and you will get a feel for what your particular compressor will do.

2)A Vocalist who doesn't know how to work a mic (which unfortunately is most of them). Again I like to start at about the same settings as for the bass except leave the attack at max or just back off a touch if you are wanting to let a little personality through but be careful because you need the compressor to grab the peaks pretty quickly. The trick is to smooth out the peaks and leave the rest of it alone. I usually see no compression happening until the singer starts belting it out and then a 3:1 ratio really makes things smooth without sounding unnatural.

That is it for the "have to have" things. There are hundreds of other things a compressor can be useful for but you start getting into "effects", personal taste, and compensation for poor muscianship. The only other thing I occasionally like to have is a compressor on accoustic guitar but you can go to "lifeless and boxy" really quick if you use too much ratio and you don't back off the attack and release a bit. 2:1 or 3:1 MAX ratio on this one and just tame it a little tiny bit or there will be no "feel" at all.

If you only have one compressor available you can use it on the main output at the 3:1 ratio with it just coming in on the peaks to smooth everything out and get more of a "radio" sound and also catch those vocal moments when you really need a limiter. The DBX 1066 has a contour button which filters the bass frequencys and will let more of the kik drum through without triggering the comp. It also has adjustable attack and release times which can be backed off a little to make everything sound a little more natural.

Just my thoughts. Good luck with it!
-Eric

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Compression

Ok I will weigh in on this one. Let me first say that I came from the recording studio before live sound and I had many many hours behind the monitors learning what my various tools did. I have mixed many shows with NO compression whatsoever and sometimes still do if the musicians and vocalists are good enough and I have racks of DBX 160 and 1066 always available and all of the various digital offerings as well. Here are my thoughts for what it is worth:

The only "have to have" compressor settings I use are:

1)Bass guitar if it is run direct. This instrument can be all over the map with dynamics, even more than a really inexperienced vocalist. A 3:1 ratio (up to a 4:1 max) is a good place to start with the threshold set around 0db if you are gained in correctly. You are trying to tighten up that flappy sound and get a more even output (and save massive headroom) without being dull and muddy. The magic happens when you back off the attack a little to allow the slaps and picking dynamics to come through while still having the tightness of the compressor grabbing the peaks. Use your ears and you will get a feel for what your particular compressor will do.

2)A Vocalist who doesn't know how to work a mic (which unfortunately is most of them). Again I like to start at about the same settings as for the bass except leave the attack at max or just back off a touch if you are wanting to let a little personality through but be careful because you need the compressor to grab the peaks pretty quickly. The trick is to smooth out the peaks and leave the rest of it alone. I usually see no compression happening until the singer starts belting it out and then a 3:1 ratio really makes things smooth without sounding unnatural.

That is it for the "have to have" things. There are hundreds of other things a compressor can be useful for but you start getting into "effects", personal taste, and compensation for poor muscianship. The only other thing I occasionally like to have is a compressor on accoustic guitar but you can go to "lifeless and boxy" really quick if you use too much ratio and you don't back off the attack and release a bit. 2:1 or 3:1 MAX ratio on this one and just tame it a little tiny bit or there will be no "feel" at all.

If you only have one compressor available you can use it on the main output at the 3:1 ratio with it just coming in on the peaks to smooth everything out and get more of a "radio" sound and also catch those vocal moments when you really need a limiter. The DBX 1066 has a contour button which filters the bass frequencys and will let more of the kik drum through without triggering the comp. It also has adjustable attack and release times which can be backed off a little to make everything sound a little more natural.

Just my thoughts. Good luck with it!
-Eric

I agree Eric. Good post.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Compression

Compression is like Coke, it goes with everything ~:-D~:grin:
And of course, the ketchup is reverb ~;-)~:wink:

 

[Eric Eskam]

Re: Compression

Thanks Eric Cagle for those real world examples - I've clipped your post for later reference!

One of the biggest things I'm looking forward to in eventually moving to a digital console is the ability to do the virtual soundcheck; record un-adulterated tracks individually, and then after the gig go back to the system in the venue to play it back and actually play with the settings and see how they change the way it sounds. There's only so much you can get out of books and web sites - often the best way to figure this stuff out is to experience it, and get experience with it.

Equally hard is getting a good starting point - thanks for some suggestions of some areas to start experimenting with first. And I'm also a believer in the less is more philosophy. I was fortunate at the beginning of my interest in photography (strictly amateur, much like my audio) to have as a mentor an "old school" film photographer to made an excellent point. It's much more interesting to learn how to take pictures "out there" in the real world that are as good as they can be from the start to minimize the amount of time you need to spend in photoshop. I agree with him that I would rather be "out there" learning photography behind the camera than flying a desk with Photoshop. It's why I hang out here and try to read about different people's experiences, how they handle them and what others comment with their perspectives to get ideas on how to get the best signal possible to the desk in the first place to keep the processing to a minimum. Sticking to the fundamentals, especially in the long run, makes it easiest for everyone.

I think Darth Vader said it best "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed."

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Compression

One of the biggest things I'm looking forward to in eventually moving to a digital console is the ability to do the virtual soundcheck; record un-adulterated tracks individually, and then after the gig go back to the system in the venue to play it back and actually play with the settings and see how they change the way it sounds. There's only so much you can get out of books and web sites - often the best way to figure this stuff out is to experience it, and get experience with it. [/FONT][/COLOR]

That is THE way to learn the fastest. Read the manual or look up online what each knob is "supposed" to do and then see what it actually does to the sound. Compressors are really easy to master in the environment you are talking about. In addition to all of the cool things you can do with them you will find out how quickly something can become dull and lifeless if too much of the dynamics are taken out. That is where lower ratios and slower attack times help out. The digital compressors are more forgiving because of how they handle the waveform by "looking ahead" and lowering the entire intact signal.
Have fun!
-Eric

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Compression

One of the biggest things I'm looking forward to in eventually moving to a digital console is the ability to do the virtual soundcheck; record un-adulterated tracks individually, and then after the gig go back to the system in the venue to play it back and actually play with the settings and see how they change the way it sounds. There's only so much you can get out of books and web sites - often the best way to figure this stuff out is to experience it, and get experience with it.

Yes! Me too

This is the reason I am going to go digital. I also wan't to be able to recall scenes once I have mixed what I consider to be a good mix for different songs.