Since the low frequency component of the SH96HO speakers can be toggle switched from 2 ohm to 8 ohm nominal impedance, I assume that the LF band gain and limiter settings in the processor would have to be adjusted up or down 6dB accordingly, in order to maintain the correct balance of lows to mid/highs?
Danley SH96HO
- Thread starter Mike Pyle
- Start date
Re: Danley SH96HO
Gain, yes. Limiters, depending on whether you are talking real voltages or dbu?
Gain, yes. Limiters, depending on whether you are talking real voltages or dbu?
Re: Danley SH96HO
The reason it is selectable is for several reasons. On the HO version-the mid/high section is not as "padded down" as in the regular SH96 version (that uses the woofers wired as 8 ohms) so that section can get louder easier.
In some applications (such as stadiums or arenas) that have a long cable run, the 8 ohm woofer selection is better so there will not be as much loss over the cable length.
But in more "normal concert" situations, the 2 ohm setting is just fine-and allows the use of a smaller amplifier to get to the rated power.
Since this cabinet finds its home in both, the switchable impedance just makes it easier.
NOTE=for the weatherized version you have to state which impedance you want it wired-since there are cables that come out of the back instead of connections. Also no switch for passive or biamp-you have to state that when ordering as well.
You are correct. The wattage does not change-but the voltage will-depending on the impedance.
The reason it is selectable is for several reasons. On the HO version-the mid/high section is not as "padded down" as in the regular SH96 version (that uses the woofers wired as 8 ohms) so that section can get louder easier.
In some applications (such as stadiums or arenas) that have a long cable run, the 8 ohm woofer selection is better so there will not be as much loss over the cable length.
But in more "normal concert" situations, the 2 ohm setting is just fine-and allows the use of a smaller amplifier to get to the rated power.
Since this cabinet finds its home in both, the switchable impedance just makes it easier.
NOTE=for the weatherized version you have to state which impedance you want it wired-since there are cables that come out of the back instead of connections. Also no switch for passive or biamp-you have to state that when ordering as well.
Re: Danley SH96HO
Where is the passive crossover point between the 4" mids and the 2 way hf driver?
Where is the passive crossover point between the 4" mids and the 2 way hf driver?
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Re: Danley SH96HO
The "obvious" ones are the electrical and the acoustical crossovers.
Then you have to also consider the "physical lowpass" (or distortion reducer) that is built into almost all Danley products. It is a physical low pass filter that keeps the distortion (that ALL loudspeakers have) from getting into the horn after they leave the drivers.
Then there is the fact that Danley does not use "normal" crossovers, so in many cases the different freq bands are actually overlapping, making the "crossover point" very wide.
For example-in the active settings, the "electrical" crossover freq overlap by about an octave. But that does not mean the ACOUSTICAL crossovers do. Once you take into account the physical low pass of the cabinet-along with the natural lowpass of the inductance of the woofers, it takes that sort "alignment" to get a smooth phase response.
And then you have other cases-such as the SH50, that actually has 3 crossover points on the HF driver alone. The first one is a lowpass around 15Khz that actually RAISES the HF level in the cabinet. Yes that is correct.
But the "real question" is why does it matter?
If I said it was 1500Hz, what would you do different than if I told you it was 800Hz?
I'm not trying to be a jerk-or ass, but just pointing out that the "simple question" has a lot of complicated answers.
That is a questions that has many different answers.
The "obvious" ones are the electrical and the acoustical crossovers.
Then you have to also consider the "physical lowpass" (or distortion reducer) that is built into almost all Danley products. It is a physical low pass filter that keeps the distortion (that ALL loudspeakers have) from getting into the horn after they leave the drivers.
Then there is the fact that Danley does not use "normal" crossovers, so in many cases the different freq bands are actually overlapping, making the "crossover point" very wide.
For example-in the active settings, the "electrical" crossover freq overlap by about an octave. But that does not mean the ACOUSTICAL crossovers do. Once you take into account the physical low pass of the cabinet-along with the natural lowpass of the inductance of the woofers, it takes that sort "alignment" to get a smooth phase response.
And then you have other cases-such as the SH50, that actually has 3 crossover points on the HF driver alone. The first one is a lowpass around 15Khz that actually RAISES the HF level in the cabinet. Yes that is correct.
But the "real question" is why does it matter?
If I said it was 1500Hz, what would you do different than if I told you it was 800Hz?
I'm not trying to be a jerk-or ass, but just pointing out that the "simple question" has a lot of complicated answers.
Re: Danley SH96HO
Mike wants to know the electrical crossover used in the passive network between the 4" and HF section compression driver. I'd assume (but we all know what that does) it is because he's trying to think through an active crossover and what that entails for him and his processing.
Mike wants to know the electrical crossover used in the passive network between the 4" and HF section compression driver. I'd assume (but we all know what that does) it is because he's trying to think through an active crossover and what that entails for him and his processing.
Re: Danley SH96HO
The passive filters do not meet "standard named filters", so simply having a "freq number" does not tell anything.
Also the actual response depends greatly upon the impedance at the different freq. So if you "assumed" that a particular component value provides a crossover of X freq into X ohms, you could be very wrong, as the impedance CURVE could be very different-causing the freq to be very different.
If somebody wants to "roll their own", then it is up to their skill/knowledge to do so.
But the "simple numbers" will not provide very much useful information.
Sorry-but it is NOT a simple "stick a number in and have it work" type of thing.
The mid/high section is passive. When you go biamped on the cabinet, the lows are on 1 channel and the mid/highs are on the other.
The passive filters do not meet "standard named filters", so simply having a "freq number" does not tell anything.
Also the actual response depends greatly upon the impedance at the different freq. So if you "assumed" that a particular component value provides a crossover of X freq into X ohms, you could be very wrong, as the impedance CURVE could be very different-causing the freq to be very different.
If somebody wants to "roll their own", then it is up to their skill/knowledge to do so.
But the "simple numbers" will not provide very much useful information.
Sorry-but it is NOT a simple "stick a number in and have it work" type of thing.
Re: Danley SH96HO
I have no intention of replacing the passive crossover network. The "simple number" (or range) is all the information I need.
I have no intention of replacing the passive crossover network. The "simple number" (or range) is all the information I need.
Re: Danley SH96HO
There are a number of reasons I can think of to ask for this.
A) Just trying to understand how it works.
B) I hear there's a popular after dinner game that they play at the Hedden house. It's called "Guess the Xover Freak". Everybody gets to see the amplitude response/phase graph and the person who guesses the wrongest number has to do the dishes.
C) Making [educated] guesses about the energy in various bands of spectrum with different types of signal content and how that will relate to max spl and component longevity.
D) To compare the performance of a particular component on the huge SH96HO horn vs that same comp in a different product.
There are a number of reasons I can think of to ask for this.
A) Just trying to understand how it works.
B) I hear there's a popular after dinner game that they play at the Hedden house. It's called "Guess the Xover Freak". Everybody gets to see the amplitude response/phase graph and the person who guesses the wrongest number has to do the dishes.
C) Making [educated] guesses about the energy in various bands of spectrum with different types of signal content and how that will relate to max spl and component longevity.
D) To compare the performance of a particular component on the huge SH96HO horn vs that same comp in a different product.
Re: Danley SH96HO
But as I said in my first response, there is no "simple easy" answer. There will be a number of different answers, depending on how specific the question.
Many times people want an "easy" answer, but if interpret the question one way you will get one correct answer, but interpret the question a different way you will get a different correct answer.
As I said earlier-very often we do not use "normal" crossovers, so the correct answer is a bit harder to come by.
Yes we use normal parts that you can get anywhere, but how those parts are ARRANGED is often "out of normal".
For example. In some models the highpass capacitor for the midrange is actually SMALLER than the one used for the HF driver.
But this is what it takes to get the performance correct.
Also on some models we use a LOW PASS filter on the HF driver to actually make the HF response go HIGHER.
So "simple answers" will give "wrong" answers to the question.
If you remove "B" (which is an interesting game BTW), then yes, there are things to be "learned".
But as I said in my first response, there is no "simple easy" answer. There will be a number of different answers, depending on how specific the question.
Many times people want an "easy" answer, but if interpret the question one way you will get one correct answer, but interpret the question a different way you will get a different correct answer.
As I said earlier-very often we do not use "normal" crossovers, so the correct answer is a bit harder to come by.
Yes we use normal parts that you can get anywhere, but how those parts are ARRANGED is often "out of normal".
For example. In some models the highpass capacitor for the midrange is actually SMALLER than the one used for the HF driver.
But this is what it takes to get the performance correct.
Also on some models we use a LOW PASS filter on the HF driver to actually make the HF response go HIGHER.
So "simple answers" will give "wrong" answers to the question.
Re: Danley SH96HO
So at this point what you're basically saying is that the crossover in question is significantly more complex than a highpass/lowpass pair and you're not able to share the cleverness applied in the situation. That's fine. Perhaps you could supply the operating range of the drivers in the box in question, or the general frequency range where they transition from one another. Either way we certainly understand what you've said so far (though possibly not as thoroughly as you do).
There are so many things Mike may be trying to accomplish, but most of them do not require a perfectly right answer. They require a RAT answer (Right About There), and can be answered with a single number or range.
So at this point what you're basically saying is that the crossover in question is significantly more complex than a highpass/lowpass pair and you're not able to share the cleverness applied in the situation. That's fine. Perhaps you could supply the operating range of the drivers in the box in question, or the general frequency range where they transition from one another. Either way we certainly understand what you've said so far (though possibly not as thoroughly as you do).
There are so many things Mike may be trying to accomplish, but most of them do not require a perfectly right answer. They require a RAT answer (Right About There), and can be answered with a single number or range.
Re: Danley SH96HO
I think what Ivan is really saying is that if he tells you what the x-over is doing, the cat will be out of the bag..LOL
I think what Ivan is really saying is that if he tells you what the x-over is doing, the cat will be out of the bag..LOL
Re: Danley SH96HO
Yes. I really don't need the blueprints, and I could never have imagined that I'd wish so hard for a marketing person to reply to this thread with a dumbed-down response.
Yes. I really don't need the blueprints, and I could never have imagined that I'd wish so hard for a marketing person to reply to this thread with a dumbed-down response.
Re: Danley SH96HO
I'll have to come to Ivan's defense here. It's not necessarily always about a manufacturer hiding the "secret sauce". Sometimes there is no one number answer, and the messy, accurate answer can be off-putting to some. For instance, we have 2-way devices that have as much as an octave-and-a-half of overlap through crossover. The HF device might run down to, say, 500 Hz (OMG!) at some level of attenuation, whilst the LF device might run up to 2 kHz or more. What is the electrical crossover point?
The acoustic crossover point is also just as tricky, as there are complex phase relationships between devices that come into play. The ACP might also have a wide range.
The shoddy nature of the industry's one-number specification sheets lead people down the wrong path sometimes. It's best if you can eyeball actual on- and off-axis magnitude graphs plus a phase response graph. You'll see that interesting designs -- and I'll definitely count Danley among this bunch -- have really clever solutions that are hard to explain even in dumbed-down marketing terms.
I'll have to come to Ivan's defense here. It's not necessarily always about a manufacturer hiding the "secret sauce". Sometimes there is no one number answer, and the messy, accurate answer can be off-putting to some. For instance, we have 2-way devices that have as much as an octave-and-a-half of overlap through crossover. The HF device might run down to, say, 500 Hz (OMG!) at some level of attenuation, whilst the LF device might run up to 2 kHz or more. What is the electrical crossover point?
The acoustic crossover point is also just as tricky, as there are complex phase relationships between devices that come into play. The ACP might also have a wide range.
The shoddy nature of the industry's one-number specification sheets lead people down the wrong path sometimes. It's best if you can eyeball actual on- and off-axis magnitude graphs plus a phase response graph. You'll see that interesting designs -- and I'll definitely count Danley among this bunch -- have really clever solutions that are hard to explain even in dumbed-down marketing terms.
Re: Danley SH96HO
Not nearly as off-putting as the "impossible to state" NO numbers answer. In that case, accuracy is completely useless.
I agree. If they graphed the magnitude and phase response of the drivers in each passband that would answer my question. But the published graphs do not.
Not nearly as off-putting as the "impossible to state" NO numbers answer. In that case, accuracy is completely useless.
I agree. If they graphed the magnitude and phase response of the drivers in each passband that would answer my question. But the published graphs do not.
Re: Danley SH96HO
I'm trying to figure out why this information -about a closed-ended system- is beneficial or necessary. What's the project, Mike?
I'm trying to figure out why this information -about a closed-ended system- is beneficial or necessary. What's the project, Mike?
Re: Danley SH96HO
What you are asking is A LOT of work, that will take a good bit of time. So what is in it for Danley?
What you are asking for is not exactly as "simple" as you say.
For example-You are asking that we "simply grab some traces"
Let's look at what that actually entails and why it is not as "simple" as that.
SURE-we could that with a little bit of work-but the answer would not be correct-but maybe that is what you are looking for-just something?
For example. This has a passive crossover between the mids and highs. All the components in a passive crossover affect everything else. Sometimes quite a bit-some times not so much.
For example-Let's just say we disconnect the HF driver and measure the mids. How do you suggest we deal with the "unterminated" crossover section on the HF? That loading can affect the response of the mid driver. So do you want us to remove the circuit board, and then unsolder the input to the HF crossover? That takes additional time.
How do you plan on dealing with the "unterminated" HF driver? Just having a diaphragm "hanging out there" is going to affect the mid range response.
If we short out the HF driver-that will provide some sort of "terminantion", but not that actually provided by the HF crossover.
And those measurements would be for the "acoustical crossover" of individual components ONLY. Once you have BOTH drivers working, the result can be different (as Rich says) due to the PHASE response of the drivers.
But that makes it harder to see any sort of "acoustical" crossover-if done properly.
And the same thing applies when trying to measure the HF response.
To get the ELECTRICAL response of the crossover is a little bit easier.
We can simply take the cabinet apart, (fortunately both the mid and HF drivers in the case are sealed-so having the back removed is no big deal), dual a dual transfer function of each freq band, and produce a report for you. But this takes some time.
This will give you some graphs-but no ANSWERS. As you have to combine all of the above to come to some sort "answer".
But who pays for all of this information gathering? and for what purpose?
We don't need to do this for our needs. I personally don't have the time on my own to do it.
You could put a request in to Danley for the information. But unless you are willing to pay for the time-I could do it "when I get a chance". But that could a couple of years or more-if things slow down a lot.
Again-I am not trying to be rude-just stating some of the realities.
I am not trying to be rude in the following answer-but please try to understand.
What you are asking is A LOT of work, that will take a good bit of time. So what is in it for Danley?
What you are asking for is not exactly as "simple" as you say.
For example-You are asking that we "simply grab some traces"
Let's look at what that actually entails and why it is not as "simple" as that.
SURE-we could that with a little bit of work-but the answer would not be correct-but maybe that is what you are looking for-just something?
For example. This has a passive crossover between the mids and highs. All the components in a passive crossover affect everything else. Sometimes quite a bit-some times not so much.
For example-Let's just say we disconnect the HF driver and measure the mids. How do you suggest we deal with the "unterminated" crossover section on the HF? That loading can affect the response of the mid driver. So do you want us to remove the circuit board, and then unsolder the input to the HF crossover? That takes additional time.
How do you plan on dealing with the "unterminated" HF driver? Just having a diaphragm "hanging out there" is going to affect the mid range response.
If we short out the HF driver-that will provide some sort of "terminantion", but not that actually provided by the HF crossover.
And those measurements would be for the "acoustical crossover" of individual components ONLY. Once you have BOTH drivers working, the result can be different (as Rich says) due to the PHASE response of the drivers.
But that makes it harder to see any sort of "acoustical" crossover-if done properly.
And the same thing applies when trying to measure the HF response.
To get the ELECTRICAL response of the crossover is a little bit easier.
We can simply take the cabinet apart, (fortunately both the mid and HF drivers in the case are sealed-so having the back removed is no big deal), dual a dual transfer function of each freq band, and produce a report for you. But this takes some time.
This will give you some graphs-but no ANSWERS. As you have to combine all of the above to come to some sort "answer".
But who pays for all of this information gathering? and for what purpose?
We don't need to do this for our needs. I personally don't have the time on my own to do it.
You could put a request in to Danley for the information. But unless you are willing to pay for the time-I could do it "when I get a chance". But that could a couple of years or more-if things slow down a lot.
Again-I am not trying to be rude-just stating some of the realities.
Re: Danley SH96HO
Rich understands how complex a "simple" answer can be
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rich understands how complex a "simple" answer can be
Re: Danley SH96HO
Mike is not asking details about the crossover-and there is no "secret sauce", just some "different" designs.
And looking at the crossover design alone will not give any answers. You also need the individual freq bands amplitude, phase, impedance and impedance phase curves attached to the crossover to get some of those types of answers.
It is NOT the crossover-OR the drivers-OR the design of the cabinet, but RATHER a combination of all of those-at the same time that give the final result.
For an active system, it can be a bit less work to provide some graphs. But passive is a good bit harder.
Mike is not asking details about the crossover-and there is no "secret sauce", just some "different" designs.
And looking at the crossover design alone will not give any answers. You also need the individual freq bands amplitude, phase, impedance and impedance phase curves attached to the crossover to get some of those types of answers.
It is NOT the crossover-OR the drivers-OR the design of the cabinet, but RATHER a combination of all of those-at the same time that give the final result.
For an active system, it can be a bit less work to provide some graphs. But passive is a good bit harder.
Re: Danley SH96HO
To be clear, I did not ask you to do any of that. Rich Frembes said "It's best if you can eyeball actual on- and off-axis magnitude graphs plus a phase response graph." To which I replied "I agree. If they graphed the magnitude and phase response of the drivers in each passband that would answer my question. But the published graphs do not." Nowhere in that exchange do I suggest that you DO anything at all, merely that if the information were available it would be useful.
To be clear, I did not ask you to do any of that. Rich Frembes said "It's best if you can eyeball actual on- and off-axis magnitude graphs plus a phase response graph." To which I replied "I agree. If they graphed the magnitude and phase response of the drivers in each passband that would answer my question. But the published graphs do not." Nowhere in that exchange do I suggest that you DO anything at all, merely that if the information were available it would be useful.
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