Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

[Kemper Watson]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Kemper uses TH212's all the time for outdoor shows without issues. I am sure high high pass is higher than what we had.

Two a side under the 650's are amazing. And I'm underpowering them a bit. I do crowds of 600-800 all season long, with an ocasional crowd of over 900-1000. First timer's on my rig always ask "where are the subs?"..

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

But in the "let's be honest" type of thing- we had a highpass filter fairly low-and you should use one a bit higher-especially when pushing the sub hard. It was basically being operated below the intended bandpass.

Ivan,

The DSL spec sheet for the TH-212 says:
"Recommended signal processing:
25 Hz highpass @ 24 dB/Octave"

For the TH-18:

"Recommended Processing ................ 25 Hz HP @ 24 dB/Butterworth"

What frequency and type was the HP set at in the demo?

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Ivan,

The DSL spec sheet for the TH-212 says:
"Recommended signal processing:
25 Hz highpass @ 24 dB/Octave"

For the TH-18:

"Recommended Processing ................ 25 Hz HP @ 24 dB/Butterworth"

What frequency and type was the HP set at in the demo?

The spec sheets I found online say 30Hz, 24dB/octave BW for the TH-212, 25Hz, 24dB/octave BW for the TH-118 and 25Hz or higher, 12dB/Octave BW for the SB1000z. I think it was a 25Hz, 24dB/octave BW applied for the demo, but I could be wrong.

I also wasn't complaining about the TH-212, it really just shows how the specifics of the application and the processing applied can affect a product being right or not for an application.

Looking at some of the data provided I do have to ask whether it is TH-118 and TH-212 with a dash or TH 118 and TH 212 with a space or TH118 and TH212 without either a space or dash? Even the Danley web site and product data seems to use multiple variations.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Ivan,

The DSL spec sheet for the TH-212 says:
"Recommended signal processing:
25 Hz highpass @ 24 dB/Octave"

For the TH-18:

"Recommended Processing ................ 25 Hz HP @ 24 dB/Butterworth"

What frequency and type was the HP set at in the demo?

Where did you find the TH212 25Hz HP filter setting. All I know is the recommendation of 30Hz.

If I remember correctly it was a 25Hz 24dB Butterworth for the demo. It might have been 20Hz, but I don't think so. That DSP has had other programs loaded into it-so the temp setting is gone.

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Where did you find the TH212 25Hz HP filter setting. All I know is the recommendation of 30Hz.

If I remember correctly it was a 25Hz 24dB Butterworth for the demo. It might have been 20Hz, but I don't think so. That DSP has had other programs loaded into it-so the temp setting is gone.

Ivan,

Got the setting from a DSL spec sheet.
The newer 142 pound TH-212 has around a 43 Hz low corner and around 38Hz Fb, the older (Tom Danley's "newest sub design" as of around 2005) 248 pound TH-212 had a 35 Hz low corner and around 28Hz Fb, about a 10 Hz difference.

Two totally different enclosures from a manufacturer using the same model number is _________ (I'll let you fill in the blank :^).

Art

PS. Just found a third different DSL-TH-212...

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Ivan,

Got the setting from a DSL spec sheet.
The newer 142 pound TH-212 has around a 43 Hz low corner and around 38Hz Fb, the older (Tom Danley's "newest sub design" as of around 2005) 248 pound TH-212 had a 35 Hz low corner and around 28Hz Fb, about a 10 Hz difference.

Two totally different enclosures from a manufacturer using the same model number is _________ (I'll let you fill in the blank :^).

Art

PS. Just found a third different DSL-TH-212...

The heavier one was the original TH212-but only existed as a prototype and as a spec sheet for a very little while. It however was the inspiration for the TH112. I tole Tom "What if we cut it in half and moved the exit 90°?" We did and the TH112 was born.

The "other" one you show is the same cabinet-just a different version. There are install and "touring" versions. The install does not have wheels and does not have the cutout for the wheels and no handle cutouts-for a cleaner look. Yes the wheels are a bit odd in their placement-but that was the only place they could go and still be a tilt back and not interfere with the horn path.

I am surprised that you didn't find a "4th" version-which is exactly the same-except the exit hole has been moved to the large side. All cabinets have this built in and is user changeable. When it is used this way you have boundary for the exit-and the physical usage is very different-ie it doesn't stick out from the wall very far at all or hang down from the ceiling much and is easier to hide above a ceiling.

If you put 4 of them together with the exits in the middle you have a pretty large boundary (6'x6')-so you start to pick up directivity. There are a number of these in use-particularly in places where directivity is needed-such as basketball arenas.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

First of all. Eric, are you back on your feet?


Regarding the SM 80:

Would the angles allow it to be used as a monitor wedge?

Should two side-by-side be "tight-packed"?

Is there an active version available?

Price?

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

First of all. Eric, are you back on your feet?


Regarding the SM 80:

Would the angles allow it to be used as a monitor wedge?

Should two side-by-side be "tight-packed"?

Is there an active version available?

Price?

Yes you can use the regular SM80 as a monitor-as the sides are cut at 40°. It is not as cool looking as the SM80M (monitor version) but will work.

The big difference is that the monitor version goes an octave lower than the regular SM80-due to the fact that it has a larger internal volume and is ported.

Yes you can put 2 side by side in a tight packed "array". They will combine better than most-but not as well as some of the other Danley products. This is because of the spacing of the HF driver and the sides of the cabinet-we could not get it any closer with the particular coax used. It does not have the "swooshie swooshie" sound that is common-but rather a slight tonal different in the middle. Most people would not realize it.

The monitor can be made active-but the regular SM80 cannot be made powered-there is no place to put the amp.

We are considering a slightly larger cabinet that would go lower (it would not be a sealed cabinet however) and could be powered. But the weight would go up-may or may not be arrayable etc. Still in the "discussion stage".

I stay away from pricing-the office could get you that information.

 

[Eric Eskam]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Now that being said-you can get some pretty decent data using phone apps and such. But it REALLY depends on the user and what they expect. Of course some people perfect results with a $2 app. So why does a real meter cost thousands of dollars to do the "same thing"? Once one starts to understand the real differences-then it should become apparent.

Have you tried the Studio Six iAudioInterface 2 for the iPad/iPhone? We have a calibrated Mic - while I realize the iAudioInterface2 isn't equivalent to dedicated test gear, I wonder if it wouldn't be good enough for our limited needs. Then again we don't get that loud so I wonder if the built in mic isn't already good enough...

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Have you tried the Studio Six iAudioInterface 2 for the iPad/iPhone? We have a calibrated Mic - while I realize the iAudioInterface2 isn't equivalent to dedicated test gear, I wonder if it wouldn't be good enough for our limited needs. Then again we don't get that loud so I wonder if the built in mic isn't already good enough...

Yes I have the I audio interface and the studio 6 test mic.

I have not spent much time with either comparing to my real test gear. But suspect they will work just fine for many applications.

Being loud or not has little to do with it. Unless of course you are just looking at measuring loud signals-at which the internal mic can't handle that sort of level and will give all kinds of skewed results.

The main reason for an external mic is the overall flatness of the response. The internal mic is designed for voice usage. That is not to say you can't get some decent measurements with it. I have not tested my mic against my real gear either. But think it is "moderately accurate".

The whole thing comes down to "what are you here to do?" And how accurate does the tool need to be? Some situations do not require a high degree of accuracy and others do.

If it is a "relative difference" you are looking for-then you could be 20dB off and still be just fine. But if you are looking for an "absolute", then you are going to need to be much more accurate. How accurate? That depends---What are you here to do? Rough in a sound system or gather data for a court case?

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

First of all. Eric, are you back on your feet?

Out of the hospital finally but having to take it easy still for a few more weeks. The doc says no lifting any of the PA rigs but I can still listen to them at a reasonable level as long as the bands don't suck. Thanks!

 

[Mike Hedden]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Have you tried the Studio Six iAudioInterface 2 for the iPad/iPhone? We have a calibrated Mic - while I realize the iAudioInterface2 isn't equivalent to dedicated test gear, I wonder if it wouldn't be good enough for our limited needs. Then again we don't get that loud so I wonder if the built in mic isn't already good enough...

I've bought IAudiointerface 2 as well as the Itestmics for our team at Danley. I also own I think every module Andrew offers at studio six and we're even doing a little beta testing on a new module that should be out shortly. I own TEF20 and 25, SMAART, EASERA, and ARTA just to name a few but the studio six products using an external microphone are just as serious as any of them. The kicker is not to use the internal mics of the display devices as that is where the problems typically lie. Certainly like any tool you have to know when/what is the appropriate application.

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Yes you can use the regular SM80 as a monitor-as the sides are cut at 40°. It is not as cool looking as the SM80M (monitor version) but will work.

The big difference is that the monitor version goes an octave lower than the regular SM80-due to the fact that it has a larger internal volume and is ported.

Yes you can put 2 side by side in a tight packed "array". They will combine better than most-but not as well as some of the other Danley products. This is because of the spacing of the HF driver and the sides of the cabinet-we could not get it any closer with the particular coax used. It does not have the "swooshie swooshie" sound that is common-but rather a slight tonal different in the middle. Most people would not realize it.

The monitor can be made active-but the regular SM80 cannot be made powered-there is no place to put the amp.

We are considering a slightly larger cabinet that would go lower (it would not be a sealed cabinet however) and could be powered. But the weight would go up-may or may not be arrayable etc. Still in the "discussion stage".

I stay away from pricing-the office could get you that information.

Cool, thanks.

Regarding the "tight pack" of two SM80 next to eachother: You are saying that they can be placed next to eachother without any gap between the cabinets, right?

Some more ideas:

Is the driver in the monitor version situated in the middle of the box?

Could one use the monitor version as mains?

What about angles?: Could one put two monitors next to each other as "double mains" but place one cabinet "upside down" so that the cabinet splay anlges line up better for a nice and stable "tight pack"?

Is it possible to outfit the monitors with a "pole cup"?

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Out of the hospital finally but having to take it easy still for a few more weeks. The doc says no lifting any of the PA rigs but I can still listen to them at a reasonable level as long as the bands don't suck. Thanks!

Good to hear!

When I hurt my back last fall I was amazed at how much I could get done just by being present and taking charge and organizing people. Wish I was able to remember more of this when I'm healthy!

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Good to hear!

When I hurt my back last fall I was amazed at how much I could get done just by being present and taking charge and organizing people. Wish I was able to remember more of this when I'm healthy!

I hear you. We had 2 pretty big gigs the first week I was in the hospital. I got a lot of behind the scenes things done like getting the generator and such things. I finally told my A1 that I was going to leave him alone and he could call me after the show and tell me how great it went. I figured he had enough things to deal with that day and I decided that I would not be one of the problems. One of the things I have learned as a company owner is to hire the right people and then let them do their job. It really does not have to be within 1/2 db of how I would have mixed it, it just has to be great.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Cool, thanks.

Regarding the "tight pack" of two SM80 next to eachother: You are saying that they can be placed next to eachother without any gap between the cabinets, right?

Some more ideas:

Is the driver in the monitor version situated in the middle of the box?

Could one use the monitor version as mains?

What about angles?: Could one put two monitors next to each other as "double mains" but place one cabinet "upside down" so that the cabinet splay anlges line up better for a nice and stable "tight pack"?

Is it possible to outfit the monitors with a "pole cup"?

Yes they should be tightpacked for least interference-side to side.

Yes the driver is in the middle of the box-in the middle of the horn.

Sure you could use the monitor as mains. you could stand it up on end-so it would sit flat. The coverage is the same anyway you turn it. There are 2 NL4 jacks inside each handle-so it doesn't matter which handle goes down.

However the porting is through the handles-so with one handle blocked off the low freq tuning will change a bit.

Yes you could use two of the cabinets in a side by side (one upside down) for wider coverage. But you will not be able to get the drivers as close as with regular SM80 version. Getting drivers close together is the key to making a cabinet arrayable.

I would have to take one apart and see about room to mount a pole cup-but my gut feeling is telling me this was a consideration in the overall layout-I just don't remember-it has been a little while since we went through that phase.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Hey all a quick follow up to this thread now that I have since bought 4 th118's. I have come to a few conclusions.

1. I'm an idiot. Justification to be found in the next point.

2. In my quest to replicate the tremendous sensitivity difference we found that day between the TH118 and the sb1000 I have learned that the comparison that day was far from fair. We may have only been listening to one driver in the sb1000 because somebody (<--) forgot that the drivers are on separate pins. :roll: So we where hearing half an sb1000 with f'ed up tuning.

3. I am still not disappointed in my purchase because the sound quality alone is reason enough to justify them. I'm just not hearing much of a sensitivity difference when swapping the nl4 between the two cabinets with pink noise (should be the same voltage right?).

4. I'm going to try and get some traces of both subs outdoors. I'm not setup to do absolute measurements, but I can do what I feel are useful relative measurements. I'll measure both side by side, unused sub shorted, same filters applied, and simply swap the cable while running pink noise (again, the voltage should be the same).

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

Hey all a quick follow up to this thread now that I have since bought 4 th118's. I have come to a few conclusions.

1. I'm an idiot. Justification to be found in the next point.

2. In my quest to replicate the tremendous sensitivity difference we found that day between the TH118 and the sb1000 I have learned that the comparison that day was far from fair. We may have only been listening to one driver in the sb1000 because somebody (<--) forgot that the drivers are on separate pins. :roll: So we where hearing half an sb1000 with f'ed up tuning.

3. I am still not disappointed in my purchase because the sound quality alone is reason enough to justify them. I'm just not hearing much of a sensitivity difference when swapping the nl4 between the two cabinets with pink noise (should be the same voltage right?).

4. I'm going to try and get some traces of both subs outdoors. I'm not setup to do absolute measurements, but I can do what I feel are useful relative measurements. I'll measure both side by side, unused sub shorted, same filters applied, and simply swap the cable while running pink noise (again, the voltage should be the same).

Brandon,

1, 2. Wiring mistakes happen, glad you made us aware of them.
The chart below shows the response of a 2 x12" sub, the white trace wired correctly, the green trace some 14 to 17 dB lower is the same signal applied with one speaker driven, the other shorted (not connected to the amp) and the purple with one speaker driven and the other just disconnected.
Obviously, far more than just a 6 dB difference that one might expect offhand from an open driver.

3. The TH 118 and the SB 1000 should be close to the same 4 ohm nominal impedance and bandwidth, so swapping the (correctly wired) cable should be a reasonable real world sensitivity comparison.
4. Ideally, you would move the unused sub out of the test area, as the increased frontal area and cabinet cavities will still have an effect on the test even with the unused cabinet shorted out. Testing outdoors, well away from boundaries would of course also be preferable.

Tapped horns seem to have more forward directivity than bass reflex cabinets of the same frontal area, doing a 90 degree test to the side and one to the rear would also be informative, and may be part of why you prefer the sound quality over the SB 1000.

I'll be looking forward to the comparison!

Art

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: Danley SM80 and others shootout Monday January 14 at Danley in Gainesville, GA.

The published sensitivity of the SB1000 is 96db full space vs 108db half space for the TH118. If my math is correct that would be 108-3-96 which is a 9db difference. That is a pretty good amount when you are talking sub frequencys. It will be interesting to see what your results are Brandon.

 

[Art Welter]

Re: Danley TH118 vs EAW SB1000

The published sensitivity of the SB1000 is 96db full space vs 108db half space for the TH118. If my math is correct that would be 108-3-96 which is a 9db difference. That is a pretty good amount when you are talking sub frequencys. It will be interesting to see what your results are Brandon.

Eric,

The SB 1000Zp uses 2 volt for a 102 dB half space sensitivity, the TH-118 2.83 volts for 108 dB sensitivity.
Reducing the TH-118 sensitivity by 3 dB to account for the voltage difference leaves only a 3 dB difference on paper, with rather different response curves.

As Brandon said "I'm just not hearing much of a sensitivity difference when swapping the nl4 between the two cabinets with pink noise."
Three dB is "not much" in terms of hearing a difference.

It will be interesting to see Brandon's side by side testing, as the EAW measurement method is different than DSL's.

Art