Double 10 and Horn

[Chris Burns]

Peter, question.. Thoughts on the Ciare with a pair of 14NDL88s in lieu of a 12? Not for your design I’m just looking at the possibility of using my two new 14NDL88s I have sitting here with it. I was going to do them with the XT originally, but now this horn has me intrigued. Have you run any tests with anything on it yet? I’m curious on how it loads down to the 4-500s. I’m considering an MMT build with these and the 4594, or potentially the new 314X or BC990 at 700hz.

How do you see phasing and lobing with that config?


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[Peter Morris]

Hi Chris,

I'm am still waiting fro the PR614 horns to arrive, they were ordered almost a month ago... but COVID-19 delays prevail.

I have done some rough SIM's with 14" B&C and the PR614 ... it looks like it might work with a reasonable vertical pattern and just a little lobing assuming you locate the 14's and horn as close as possible.

 

[Chris Burns]

Hi Chris,

I'm am still waiting fro the PR614 horns to arrive, they were ordered almost a month ago... but COVID-19 delays prevail.

I have done some rough SIM's with 14" B&C and the PR614 ... it looks like it might work with a reasonable vertical pattern and just a little lobing assuming you locate the 14's and horn as close as possible.

that’s great feedback thank you Peter. I purchased a pair of those amazing drivers along with a pair of ME90 horns and a pair of 780 CDs from someone who never used them, and all of that was for the cost of just the pair of NDLs.

The 14” driver and very unique and bridges a really nice gap between the efficiency and performance of the 15 and the directional and coverage pattern of a 12.

The specs on that are super impressive. A pair of those with a 80hz tune is really outstanding. The levels attainable mathematically for a pair are upwards of 136db at 500hz. Attenuated Flat from the 80hz tune is still a solid 132db. They will keep up and outperform the B&C or BMS Coax.

I’m going to order a pair of the Ciare now. Once USSpeaker opens up we should see a lot of movement. B&C opened last week and Eminence is set to open very shortly if not already.


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[Peter Morris]

I know the B&C 14's quite well ... here are a couple of my other designs - double B&C 14 with DCX464 and a double B&C 21SW152 sub.

 

[Chris Burns]

I know the B&C 14's quite well ... here are a couple of my other designs - double B&C 14 with DCX464 and a double B&C 21SW152 sub.

I like that!


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[Grant Manson]

Just wanted to jump in and say thanks to those who helped me figure out the dual 10 issues i was having. A wooden insert with a layer of acoustic foam later and we've got a nice looking response with some outrageous output for the size of these thing.

All i need to do now is EQ the tweeter

 

[Monne Tsiu]

Just wanted to jump in and say thanks to those who helped me figure out the dual 10 issues i was having. A wooden insert with a layer of acoustic foam later and we've got a nice looking response with some outrageous output for the size of these thing.

All i need to do now is EQ the tweeter

Where have you placed the wooden inserts and the acoustic foam?
Secondly, what is the maximum SPL you are getting from the cabinet?

 

[raul garcia]

Hola estoy restaurando unos 2x10 con dos beyma 10 g40 y beyma cp800 ti. También tengo unos 10 mi100. Que me daría un mejor resultado? ¿Qué configuración me recomendais?
Tengo que modificar los puertos de sintonización.

 

[David Morison]

If you want to use these boxes full range (ie without subwoofers) or with a low crossover frequency the G40 will be better as it has nearly 2x the amount of linear excursion, so can handle more lowmids & lows.
If you always use these with subwoofers for example crossing over about 150Hz or higher, the MI100 can get about 2dB louder than the G40 but using a smaller amplifier.

 

[raul garcia]

Si utilizaría subwoofer y mi intención es cruzarlos a 100hz.
Me preocupa un poco bajar cp800 a 650 Hz como comentáis el horn td 360 te recomienda 800hz, ahora los tengo cruzado a 1200 hz

 

[David Morison]

Si utilizaría subwoofer y mi intención es cruzarlos a 100hz.
Me preocupa un poco bajar cp800 a 650 Hz como comentáis el horn td 360 te recomienda 800hz, ahora los tengo cruzado a 1200 hz

If you want to use them at full program power, then for a 100Hz crossover I'd stick with the 10G40.
The TD360 is pretty small so I would not attempt to cross it lower than the manufacturer's recommendation.

 

[raul garcia]

Muchas gracias David

 

[Peter Morris]

I would not go below about 800Hz with that horn. The specification say that the cut off frequency is 1000Hz, so 800Hz may even be a bit low. Also it looks like the horn is mounted on its side, to give a pattern of 40 degrees horizontal x 60 vertical degree not 60 x 40.

https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/media/catalog/product/datasheet/beyma/TD360.pdf

 

[raul garcia]

Ok gracias Peter

 

[Chris Burns]

Need a bit of a refresh and confirmation.

If designing a MTM, the Mid/woofs edges of the cones need to be within is it one wavelength of each other to blend and not lobe or is it 1/2 wavelength at the highest crossover point to the Comp driver between them? I also dont remembe if its edge of driver cone to edge of driver cone or center of driver to center of driver measurement.

Sorry I know this is elementary but I just want to ensure Im correct in a project Im moving on.

Thanks again gang


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[Chris Burns]

If anyone is looking for a pair of 14NDL88s in US unused and for a very fair price let me know.


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[Gytis Zemaitis]

What are advantages and disadvantages of placing drivers on angle like this? Does driver spacing changes?

 

[Andy King]

Hello all and time to renew this thread. Please forgive some of my questions, I am an ex lampy who retired some years ago, but now feels the need to "dabble" again. I have a small PA thats used for DJ parties and bands (about 150 capacity) and would like to improve over what I have. I have read all of Peter's design threads and this box is the one that I feel offers what I am looking for in terms of performance and portability. As such, I feel I have learnt a lot, but still have much to ask, so here goes.....

I like the idea of a simple build and utilising the TMM layout makes sense to me. Does utilising the MTM layout either with a flat front baffle as per Max's drawing here, or hornloaded as per Jaroslav's drawing here make any difference to speaker performance? By that, I am referring to overall output and/or sound quality? If so, would you say its a substantive difference, or just a bit?

Did anyone produce a final drawing for the TMM layout? Is there a cut sheet drawing, or CAD files available?

Drive unit choice seems to have come down to B&C, as I have had great results with them in the past and I also know several people who have had exscellent results with them. As such DE1090TN on the RCF horn flare and either 10NDL64, or 10NW64. Thoughts and observations appreciated. Also as an outsider, the added lower bass response of the 18 sound 10NW650 appeals, it also appears to have a slightly flatter frequency response which I presume will help and am possibly erring towards this driver.

I should point out that speaker building is new to me, although I have built several laser systems (including mid frame argon & krypton), so I'm not totally useless. I also havent any audio measuring, or test equipment, hence wanting to keep this relatively simple. With this in mind, would a passive crossover between the mids and tweeter, be viable, or is there too much signal processing involved?

And finally, would fitting a plate amp work? Probably 2 channel with basic DSP. I guess this would be better than a passive XO and provide a degree of processing and equalisation. Any recommendations?

 

[Art Welter]

I like the idea of a simple build and utilising the TMM layout makes sense to me. Does utilising the MTM layout either with a flat front baffle as per Max's drawing here, or hornloaded as per Jaroslav's drawing here make any difference to speaker performance? By that, I am referring to overall output and/or sound quality? If so, would you say its a substantive difference, or just a bit?

The difference is in the vertical pattern in the crossover range.
Horn loaded response will add a little gain in the below the crossover range, but require more EQ to even the peaks and dips out.
For small gigs, getting the horn above head level gives the advantage to TMM.

Did anyone produce a final drawing for the TMM layout? Is there a cut sheet drawing, or CAD files available?

Haven't checked past #56.

I also havent any audio measuring, or test equipment, hence wanting to keep this relatively simple. With this in mind, would a passive crossover between the mids and tweeter, be viable, or is there too much signal processing involved?

Passive crossovers are not simple, and the components are not cheap.

And finally, would fitting a plate amp work? Probably 2 channel with basic DSP. I guess this would be better than a passive XO and provide a degree of processing and equalisation. Any recommendations?

It would work, though I have no recommendations, and prefer amps and processing separate from the enclosures.

Art

 

[Jaroslav Mikyska]

Hello guys, two years ago I made a small box 12+1.4

Mikesound Letohrad - zvukaø Jaroslav Mikyska - Mike - Ozvuèování kulturních akcí.

And only today I tried the phase correction of a 12" speaker with an oblique mounting, I was missing 600hz, so I remembered that this was solved here with my previous box 2x10 +horn (MB-21014H)

Mikesound Letohrad - zvukaø Jaroslav Mikyska - Mike - Ozvuèování kulturních akcí.

and I think the same solution will help in that box. I covered more than half of the speaker membrane with a plate, for 12" it is 230mm and I have an increase of almost 15 dB at 600hz. The advantage is that the box does not have to be modified in any way, the plate with the necessary distance for the displacement of the membrane is just inserted and mounted via the screws of the speaker. I am attaching a picture of the test phase corrector and measurement, white is without correction and blue is with correction.
Mike