Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

Eric Cagle

Senior
Jan 20, 2011
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Atlanta, GA
Let me preface this with I have been a recording engineer since 1981 (anyone remember 2" tape?). I love live sound for many reasons such as not having to listen to the same song over and over and over and over for three days while everyone retakes all their parts or segments or even a few notes to get that "perfect" performance. Also for those of you who take it for granted there is nothing like being behind a state of the art system with stacks of BIG subs making BIG sound.

Spending a little time in a studio really allows you to learn what your tools will actually do in a slow paced environment. What does compression sound like at 3:1? 6:1? 10:1? What does slowing the attack do? What does slowing or speeding up the release do? Yes we get to play with it a little in live sound but get behind some really high resolution monitors or a really good set of headphones and spend some time with a looped track and you will really learn what compression parameters really do.

What does your noise gate really do? How much of the attack does it really clip off? How accurate does it track? How much can you take out with the key filters and rate before it starts to degrade the sound of the original input noticeably? What release rate sounds the most natural?

It is all about subtle differences that you can actually hear in a studio environment.

What does a reverb unit really sound like? There is so much ambient noise in live sound that the quality of reverb is much less of an issue. That is not so in a studio environment. The difference between a Lexicon PCM series and a Yamaha SPX series is night and day but for live sound there is really less of an appreciable difference on many of the common units we employ. I have some really expensive and fine units I have left over from my recording studio days that I use live but I am honestly just as happy with something more affordable like the TC M-One for a live situation. I even like the sound of the built in effects on my MixWizard for the shows I use them for. If I really need or want something better I can patch it in but in most cases it would just be anal-retentive on my part.

The whole point I am trying to make is that spending quality time in a recording studio environment will really fine tune your ears and mixing ability. You will learn very subtle differences that make it easier and faster to get where you are going with live sound. You can do the same thing with some recorded tracks and a good set of headphones but either way it will make you a better engineer.

The other great thing about being studio savvy is there is such an opportunity for extra revenue for every good engineer now that live multitrack recording is so affordable. Live recordings at the JV level are really easy to mix if you capture the tracks decently. You are just mixing what a band gave you during their performance rather than trying to build a masterpiece from the ground up in a studio.

The last thing that I will add is that in the studio world you are looking for "translation", that is NOT how it sounds on your speakers or headphones but "How it sounds everywhere else on all the other systems" that people playback on. Learn that one and be a decent mixer and you are good to go.

The recording studio is not a different world. It is a different part of our same world.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

I agree 100%. You can't practice at a live show and practice is needed to improve...straight and simple.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

I am the ultimate example of this. After a full career of doing live sound, I have been involved in studio projects just a couple of times, and live recordings a number of times. Most of the live recordings have been mixed on the fly. Some recording engineers I know have repeatedly comment on how they don't understand how I get the results I do, live, working at the pace live mixers work at. I have joked with them that I can put up a full sized system for a street festival, run 4 bands through it, break it down, and put everything away in less time then they can place a mic on a drum.

I am currently involved in my first "high stakes" (meaning I really care about the quality of the outcome because it will be fairly widely distributed) mix down and mastering of live multi tracks. While I am learning some significant things along the way, I am very pleased with the outcome so far. That includes the advice I got in the thread about studio monitors.

I am finding that much of what I am learning does relate to doing it live, even if I already have a good idea how I want to handle things in a live setting.

Critical listening in any form can't hurt a mixer.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

I'm fairly certain that the reverse is true, as well

Geri O
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

i started out as a muso

then slowly morphed into a studio cat

then i built a analogue/midi studio
and became an engineer

then i got on at a production company in camarillo
and spent a couple decades riding back and forth across north amerka
in various capacities of audio dude

then i started driving for one of the rockbox haulers

on bridges to babalon we decided every driver on the road
needed to ride in a big truck for a week before they could get their license

i played a few songs at a [regular mix] gig the other nite
for a missing bass player


it's always a good idea to get as much and as varied input
into your life as is humanly possible

if for no other reason than you can look back
from half way to 100 and say you've done a good job so far...




fwiw
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

I came from a recording background but don't think either discipline is some higher calling. Both are hard to do well.

JR

PS: In my experience there is a little less BS and phoolery on the live side, but only less, not none.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

This is to both Jay and Geri. There is much that a live engineer will bring to the recording studio environment as well. The biggest single thing that comes to mind is being laid back and not anal-retentive. The idea of moving a microphone in 1/4 inch increments to get "the best possible sound physically possible" and at each position changing the angle a couple of degrees is really absurd when you think about it, and it is even more absurd at $150 per hour. Now add in changing preamps multiple times. This is an extreme example but things like this really do happen. The more experience you have the more you realize that there is a position or two and a particular microphone that will work just grand and sound great for a fairly wide range of distance. In live sound we have to mic closer to have less stage wash. As far as a "high stakes" project Just keep in mind that most of the folks will be listening to it on a mp3 through a system that probably cost way less than $100. A good band and a good song well mixed won't sell one more copy if it was recorded in this or that studio or in someone's basement if it is done well. I am sure it is going to turn out well. Of course we want to do the best job we can and use the best equipment we can get but what ever equipment you use doesn't compare at all to how good the band plays and how good of an engineer you are. If you have an experienced studio engineer to have a second set of ears all the better but I bet it won't be too drastically different than what you come up with. You have a big advantage in that you know what they sound like live. An experienced studio engineer can help with the "translation" factor if you are not comfortable with that yet.

I have said this before. It doesn't have to be within 1/2db of the way I would do it, it just has to be great.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

Yup.

Sound is sound is sound. The environment on the input side is one variable. The delivery system on the far end is another. In between, the gear is all the same.

I sit in the middle and do what I have to do to get the sound through coherently from one end to the other.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

Yup.

Sound is sound is sound. The environment on the input side is one variable. The delivery system on the far end is another. In between, the gear is all the same.

I sit in the middle and do what I have to do to get the sound through coherently from one end to the other.

Dick Rees, ladies and gentlemen, the Audio Laxative.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

I agree 100%. You can't practice at a live show and practice is needed to improve...straight and simple.
Actually, nowadays you can - virtually. Just record all the channels raw and you can take your mixer home and mess about with mixing the same performances all you want :) minus the stage wash of course.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

Yea. Eric's right in a sense. But there's a Lot of things that apply in the studio that don't apply in live sound.
 
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Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

I'm fairly certain that the reverse is true, as well

Geri O


Kinda sorta .....

I on average get 3 to 4 people coming to me a year looking for work that have just graduated from full sail.

They may be good in the studio but I explain that live sound support is a vastly different beast yet with the same mother.

Old west terminology. You have to be quick on the draw and accurate with your choice.
Unlike the studio you only have one chance to get it right while live.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

Kinda sorta .....

I on average get 3 to 4 people coming to me a year looking for work that have just graduated from full sail.

They may be good in the studio but I explain that live sound support is a vastly different beast yet with the same mother.

Old west terminology. You have to be quick on the draw and accurate with your choice.
Unlike the studio you only have one chance to get it right while live.

That Full Sail business is a whole 'mother can 'o worms. In every sense of the term. And, yes, I thought Auto-Correct made a good call there...:)

Geri O
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

That Full Sail business is a whole 'mother can 'o worms. In every sense of the term. And, yes, I thought Auto-Correct made a good call there...:)

Geri O
A few years ago I interviewed an Empty Sheet graduate. I'll skip the details but suffice it to say the applicant didn't do well.

At the end, he asked "just what do I need to know to work here?"

"I take 2 creams in my coffee and the brooms are over (pointing) there....."

I guess he didn't like the offer as he neither seized a broom nor brought me coffee.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

. Some things from the studio should never be used live. And live said:
What should never be used live?
Knowing how a mix is constructed IMO is never a bad thing. If someone understands that putting an EQ dip in guitars can help clear up vocals that is a good thing. Accumulating studio chops gives one more insight into how a pro mix can be constructed. I often do things that I can't immediately hear but they all lead to a better sounding mix. Hi pass filtering is a big one. I don't need/want 40 Hz response on every microphone on stage. I see so many live mixers who seem to be randomly adjusting things hoping...I guess..that the mix will magically appear if they adjust enough things. Recently asked a kid I know who was mixing a show for 3000+ people what he was working on? He gave me a puzzled look. I asked him what parts of the mix he thought could be improved? Deer in the headlights! The common comment in these situation is.." people don't know the difference!" my response is always "yes, but they will NOTICE the difference if presented with a better option!"
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

What should never be used live?

Most things are EXACTLY the same but there are some techniques that absolutely would not work in a live situation. The classic Led Zeppelin drum sound achieved naturally without effects by backing up the overhead mics a large distance (10-20 feet or so) in an ambient room and compressing them into oblivion comes to mind.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

What should never be used live?
I see so many live mixers who seem to be randomly adjusting things hoping...I guess..that the mix will magically appear if they adjust enough things.
I have seen that waaaayyyy to many times.

We actually had a install customer (church) who called and said we needed to come look at the sound system because "We have pushed every button and twisted every knob and cannot get it to sound good". A direct quote.

Maybe that is the FIRST problem- you don't just start randomly adjusting "hoping" to find a good setting.

It is NOT a cake- you don't keep "mixing". You have a SPECIFIC thing you want to/need to adjust-and attack THAT.
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

You have a SPECIFIC thing you want to/need to adjust-and attack THAT.

It's important to keep the mix as a whole in mind too. I once managed to miss the fact that a guitar sounded horrible because I was busy listening to the attack time on the vocal compressor. :blush:

If the specific thing you're attacking changes the perceived sound of something else you don't want to be too ​focused.

Chris
 
Re: Every live sound engineer should spend a little time in a recording studio.

If you get more experience, in as many different situations as possible, you'll almost certainly be better than you were before.

I know a few people who have never been in the studio on more than two or three occasions, simply because they don't enjoy it (probably because of anal-retentive people), and still mix wonderfully because they have decades of experience doing it. It's not about where, it's about how many different wheres combined with lots of time.

And I agree with mixing towards the end goal, and analyzing the goal rather than how you got there. After all, it's the only thing the audience hears. There were a few posts about this, but too many to credit.