Guitar Amp Modelers

Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Art Welter said:
I embrace technology too, but I'd tend to agree with the Batman :^).

If going the modeling route for a backline rental (which probably won't be well embraced) I'd also get (at least) double the power of the type of tube amp it would replace.
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I read somewhere that you'd need five times the power for a solid state amp to replace a tube amp. I don't know if this is true but I know that a 100w solid state amp isn't enough to replace some 100w tube amp...
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Robert Lofgren said:
I read somewhere that you'd need five times the power for a solid state amp to replace a tube amp. I don't know if this is true but I know that a 100w solid state amp isn't enough to replace some 100w tube amp...
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Played clean below clipping it is the 1:1 relationship we would expect.

As you approach clipping the tube waveform distorts differently than the solid state amplifier does and that changes the sonic character and apparent loudness.

The 5x ratio sounds like something a salesman might tell you while there is a subjectively louder sound from clipping a tube amp than a solid state amp.

JR
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

John Roberts said:
Played clean below clipping it is the 1:1 relationship we would expect.

As you approach clipping the tube waveform distorts differently than the solid state amplifier does and that changes the sonic character and apparent loudness.

The 5x ratio sounds like something a salesman might tell you while there is a subjectively louder sound from clipping a tube amp than a solid state amp.

JR
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Thank you. I was having a severe "not you guys too" moment.
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

I haven't had the opportunity to hear the Axe FX II (or the original), but I do own a Kemper Rack and a VHT Pittbull (original Fryettte version) tube amp, a Mesa Tripple Rect, a Fender HRD, and an original Egnator TOL100.It is my opinion that the Kemper can do what the others do as well as replace a ton of external pedals. This little 11 lb rack mount unit creates all the complex overtones that are so well loved in real tube amps. The lush verbs and efx built in are also very nice.I haven't carried a tube amp and cab to a gig in 3 months. I don't think I will ever again.This device is the real deal. It really does gush and drip with tone. It is also less expensive than the Axe II Fx. I really could not possibly be happier with the Kemper than I am. I have played more since I got it than I have in the last 30 years.
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

I've worked with a couple really good tribute bands that went direct with guitars via modelers and just a DI on bass. The guitar tones were spot on to the bands they were "tributing". They had programmed presets for each of the songs and the different parts with in the songs.

What I always find funny is when a guitar player has a modeling pedal and yet plugs it into a guitar amp, I guess that kind of re models the modeling into what ever their amp is. It's even better when they take their pedals overdrive and then over drive it again with in the amp.
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Mike Caldwell said:
I've worked with a couple really good tribute bands that went direct with guitars via modelers and just a DI on bass. The guitar tones were spot on to the bands they were "tributing". They had programmed presets for each of the songs and the different parts with in the songs.

What I always find funny is when a guitar player has a modeling pedal and yet plugs it into a guitar amp, I guess that kind of re models the modeling into what ever their amp is. It's even better when they take their pedals overdrive and then over drive it again with in the amp.
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OK I am probably talking to the wrong crowd here, but if you go the route of modelers with a patch per song:

NORMALIZE YOUR PATCHES

I had a band in the club bragging about no stage volume but they had 22 channels that at least half needed to be regained EVERY single song. That included the vocals because they were doing they own effect boxes on stage.

This is not a hard procedure. Plug your output into a board. Hit PFL on the board and watch the meter. Adjust your output of your modeler so that the level on the board is good with the pre amp of the board set somewhere reasonable. Then check each patch and adjust and save so the output gain gives the same reading on the board without changing the board settings.

Then your instrument should be nice and consistent in the mix regardless of what system you are playing through.
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Jay Barracato said:
OK I am probably talking to the wrong crowd here, but if you go the route of modelers with a patch per song:

NORMALIZE YOUR PATCHES

I had a band in the club bragging about no stage volume but they had 22 channels that at least half needed to be regained EVERY single song. That included the vocals because they were doing they own effect boxes on stage.

This is not a hard procedure. Plug your output into a board. Hit PFL on the board and watch the meter. Adjust your output of your modeler so that the level on the board is good with the pre amp of the board set somewhere reasonable. Then check each patch and adjust and save so the output gain gives the same reading on the board without changing the board settings.

Then your instrument should be nice and consistent in the mix regardless of what system you are playing through.
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Is there a keyboard forum you could post this on?...LOL
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Jay Barracato said:
OK I am probably talking to the wrong crowd here, but if you go the route of modelers with a patch per song:

NORMALIZE YOUR PATCHES

I had a band in the club bragging about no stage volume but they had 22 channels that at least half needed to be regained EVERY single song. That included the vocals because they were doing they own effect boxes on stage.

This is not a hard procedure. Plug your output into a board. Hit PFL on the board and watch the meter. Adjust your output of your modeler so that the level on the board is good with the pre amp of the board set somewhere reasonable. Then check each patch and adjust and save so the output gain gives the same reading on the board without changing the board settings.

Then your instrument should be nice and consistent in the mix regardless of what system you are playing through.
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Yea that can make for a fun show!!!!

The guys I was referring to had their levels all figured out.
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

While I don't post here often most of you guys know me from PSW. Many years ago Digitech had a great modeling preamp (2120) and a number of us used them in front of our amps. The purpose was not to emulate another amplifier or group of amplifiers, the purpose was to emulate any pedals or effects normally used in front of the amp. That would include TS-808 Tube Screamers, Ross compressors, chorus, Leslie, etc..

To that effect these modelers worked very well, but emulating a Deluxe Reverb, JTM45, etc. is not practical without the majority of the components those amps work with. No way can you really emulate a driven JTM45 without those four 12" Celestions any more than you can duplicate the dirty grind of a Deluxe and a single D120 whose 6V6s are just crying in pain. Or can you duplicate Claptons woman tone without an SG tone full off and a Marshall Blues Breaker.

You can, if you want to spend the money, get pretty close, however, the feel is just not the same, and the stage presence is gone. Looking at the list of "endorsing" players on the Fractal site leaves you with the impression these players have opted for the Fractal box and nothing more. I don't believe this to be the case, although I do believe that every one of those players has found a good use for the Fractal modeler in one form or another, and if they send me a free unit I'll find a use also. That being said the fractal sits at the top of all modelers at this point in time and is a consideration if that's a requirement. I'll continue to use my selection of Fender amplifiers with my favorite pedals, which can be by-passed, and enjoy tone as intended by Leo.

Another point to make is are modelers acceptable to the performer. Most times they are not. Fender Twin Reverbs seem to be 70% of what is acceptable today for the all around go to amp, but you'll never hear of a player saying no to a good Twin, Deluxe, Super, Marshall tube amp, or SVT. For transistorized amps only the JC 120 and LAB 5 come to mind. Modelers to me are nothing more than expensive effects units which can never be mistaken for the real deal.
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Bob Leonard said:
While I don't post here often most of you guys know me from PSW. Many years ago Digitech had a great modeling preamp (2120) and a number of us used them in front of our amps. The purpose was not to emulate another amplifier or group of amplifiers, the purpose was to emulate any pedals or effects normally used in front of the amp. That would include TS-808 Tube Screamers, Ross compressors, chorus, Leslie, etc..

To that effect these modelers worked very well, but emulating a Deluxe Reverb, JTM45, etc. is not practical without the majority of the components those amps work with. No way can you really emulate a driven JTM45 without those four 12" Celestions any more than you can duplicate the dirty grind of a Deluxe and a single D120 whose 6V6s are just crying in pain. Or can you duplicate Claptons woman tone without an SG tone full off and a Marshall Blues Breaker.

You can, if you want to spend the money, get pretty close, however, the feel is just not the same, and the stage presence is gone. Looking at the list of "endorsing" players on the Fractal site leaves you with the impression these players have opted for the Fractal box and nothing more. I don't believe this to be the case, although I do believe that every one of those players has found a good use for the Fractal modeler in one form or another, and if they send me a free unit I'll find a use also. That being said the fractal sits at the top of all modelers at this point in time and is a consideration if that's a requirement. I'll continue to use my selection of Fender amplifiers with my favorite pedals, which can be by-passed, and enjoy tone as intended by Leo.

Another point to make is are modelers acceptable to the performer. Most times they are not. Fender Twin Reverbs seem to be 70% of what is acceptable today for the all around go to amp, but you'll never hear of a player saying no to a good Twin, Deluxe, Super, Marshall tube amp, or SVT. For transistorized amps only the JC 120 and LAB 5 come to mind. Modelers to me are nothing more than expensive effects units which can never be mistaken for the real deal.
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Hi Bob,

I would have agreed with you 100% just a few months ago. BTW, my VHT rig included a 2120 with JAN Phillips 12AX7 NOS tubes in it.

Look on the forums for the Kemper Profiling amp and see the kinds of guys that are using it. All of them are old school tube amp guys. For me, this was key since it is very hard to pry a JTM45 away from a tube amp lover. The KPA has pulled tube amp players away all over the place. In fact, it is hard to find any bad forum posts about the Kemper anywhere on the net.... which again lends credibility to the product since most of the time you can't get a group of tube amp players to agree that grass is green ;)
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Scott Bolt said:
Hi Bob,

I would have agreed with you 100% just a few months ago. BTW, my VHT rig included a 2120 with JAN Phillips 12AX7 NOS tubes in it.

Look on the forums for the Kemper Profiling amp and see the kinds of guys that are using it. All of them are old school tube amp guys. For me, this was key since it is very hard to pry a JTM45 away from a tube amp lover. The KPA has pulled tube amp players away all over the place. In fact, it is hard to find any bad forum posts about the Kemper anywhere on the net.... which again lends credibility to the product since most of the time you can't get a group of tube amp players to agree that grass is green ;)
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Based on your words I'll have to take a serious look at the Kemper. Not that I'll use it, but it would be a revelation to me if I found anything that could pass a blind test.


Added:

OK, it samples the amplifier you wish to duplicate. I can see that to be promising, specifically because I supplement my backline using Roland Integra-7 sound modules.
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Bob Leonard said:
Added:

OK, it samples the amplifier you wish to duplicate. I can see that to be promising, specifically because I supplement my backline using Roland Integra-7 sound modules.
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Not to drive too far down the road of speculation, guitar amps are part of a combined musical instrument. Unlike PA or Hifi speakers, guitar amps and guitar speakers do not even attempt to reproduce a flat signal, or even within a narrow defined propagation pattern.

Sampling by definition occurs in less dimensions than sound propagates from an actual amp so will never capture the full impact of amplifier XYZ.

That said, live performance involves many compromises. You do not need to sound like an XYZ amp on stage, you only need to sound like an XYZ amp through the PA. This is a much lower hurdle to clear.

I have heard inexpensive tube amp mimics that fooled most of the people most of the time (at a NAMM show). The mystery of tube overload has been decoded so I expect there are decent modeling plug-ins. Probably not as satisfying when noodling in the living room, but good enough to fool the meat in the seats.

JR
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

John Roberts said:
Not to drive too far down the road of speculation, guitar amps are part of a combined musical instrument. Unlike PA or Hifi speakers, guitar amps and guitar speakers do not even attempt to reproduce a flat signal, or even within a narrow defined propagation pattern.

JR
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There are a few manufacturers of flat responce amps, just for this purpose. My guitarist bought two of them to emulate his stereo rig..I'll find out the name tomorrow
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Kemper Watson said:
There are a few manufacturers of flat responce amps, just for this purpose. My guitarist bought two of them to emulate his stereo rig..I'll find out the name tomorrow
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For a flat guitar amp playback, you could just use a keyboard amp, but you probably want a larger power amp section for extra headroom to avoid solid state clipping.

JR
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

John Roberts said:
Not to drive too far down the road of speculation, guitar amps are part of a combined musical instrument. Unlike PA or Hifi speakers, guitar amps and guitar speakers do not even attempt to reproduce a flat signal, or even within a narrow defined propagation pattern.

Sampling by definition occurs in less dimensions than sound propagates from an actual amp so will never capture the full impact of amplifier XYZ.

That said, live performance involves many compromises. You do not need to sound like an XYZ amp on stage, you only need to sound like an XYZ amp through the PA. This is a much lower hurdle to clear.

I have heard inexpensive tube amp mimics that fooled most of the people most of the time (at a NAMM show). The mystery of tube overload has been decoded so I expect there are decent modeling plug-ins. Probably not as satisfying when noodling in the living room, but good enough to fool the meat in the seats.

JR
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John and Bob,

Being an EE, the Kemper methodology intrigued me. It not only samples the amp you are profiling, but puts a series of test signals into it. In EE speak, it derives the impulse response and frequency response of the amplifier RIG.

You guys are correct. Kemper rigs include not only the amp, but the cab and microphone (microphone placement, room conditions, etc, etc) which is why the call them "rigs" vs patches.

You can get the sound of a tube amp on stage through the use of a decent full range PA speaker (a DXR10/12, etc) as your monitor. If you send most rigs into a guitar cab, you won't be as happy with what you hear because most guitar cabs clip off sharply in the higher frequencies.

If you can find one in a store, give them a try. There are some real jewels of rigs out there free of charge. If you download a couple of these before you go hear the kemper, you will get a better idea of what it can do. Also, make sure the rigs you are using were made with the same kind of guitar you are using (ie a rig that sounds good with a tele wont sound as good with a Les Paul).
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

Scott Bolt said:
John and Bob,

Being an EE, the Kemper methodology intrigued me. It not only samples the amp you are profiling, but puts a series of test signals into it. In EE speak, it derives the impulse response and frequency response of the amplifier RIG.

You guys are correct. Kemper rigs include not only the amp, but the cab and microphone (microphone placement, room conditions, etc, etc) which is why the call them "rigs" vs patches.

You can get the sound of a tube amp on stage through the use of a decent full range PA speaker (a DXR10/12, etc) as your monitor. If you send most rigs into a guitar cab, you won't be as happy with what you hear because most guitar cabs clip off sharply in the higher frequencies.

If you can find one in a store, give them a try. There are some real jewels of rigs out there free of charge. If you download a couple of these before you go hear the kemper, you will get a better idea of what it can do. Also, make sure the rigs you are using were made with the same kind of guitar you are using (ie a rig that sounds good with a tele wont sound as good with a Les Paul).
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I have been following this technology as it evolved over decades.

There is a place for it but there will always be subtle differences between a mimic and the real thing. I am not dismissing the technology just trying to frame it in a proper perspective.

My mixer design group used to share a common lab space with guitar amp design engineers so I got to see what and how amp design works on a daily basis for years.

As I have been trying to say, just modeling the electrical response of a guitar amp misses the acoustic mojo going on with speaker distortion, and room/space sound radiation patterns due to open back and/or side panels re-radiating sound. There are weird crosstalk vectors inside/between the high impedance circuit nodes that changes with front panel settings.

There is lots more going on, but TMI for this thread.

JR
 
Re: Guitar Amp Modelers

John Roberts said:
I have been following this technology as it evolved over decades.

There is a place for it but there will always be subtle differences between a mimic and the real thing. I am not dismissing the technology just trying to frame it in a proper perspective.

My mixer design group used to share a common lab space with guitar amp design engineers so I got to see what and how amp design works on a daily basis for years.

As I have been trying to say, just modeling the electrical response of a guitar amp misses the acoustic mojo going on with speaker distortion, and room/space sound radiation patterns due to open back and/or side panels re-radiating sound. There are weird crosstalk vectors inside/between the high impedance circuit nodes that changes with front panel settings.

There is lots more going on, but TMI for this thread.

JR
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I totally agree. Modeling of any system is only as good as the understanding the engineer who models it has and the number of non-ideal behaviors he/she has modeled correctly. This is likely the cause of so many poor sounding modelers IMHO.

The method Kemper is using is the impulse response (and some other magic that I haven't been able to get a handle on) of the actual amp, speaker, and microphone. IMO, this is a totally different approach than a modeler and is the reason for the stellar sound quality achievable with the Kemper vs nearly every other digital modeling amp out there. The one exception may be the Axe II Fx. There are some (a minority) users which have played both and prefer the flexibility of the Axe; however, it appears that more people that have used both end up selling the Axe and keeping the Kemper. In all cases, the Kemper is described as having the better raw tone of a tube amp.

It is a very interesting idea. I am surprised that it has taken this long for someone to use the idea of impulse response on a guitar tube amp. I know that impulse responses are common in reverb technology for recordings.
 
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